How Does One Remove Ancient Black Powder Fouling?

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

  I just picked up an 1889 production  1873 Winchester. As might be expected, the bore isn't in the greatest of condition. It's quite rough, but what's odd is the last 6"-8" look pretty good. I'm hoping against hope that what is roughness in the remainder of the bore may be 100 year old powder fouling. IF it were, what wold be the best way to remove it? Soaking it in some soultion?

  Thanks,
  CHT

[Ranch 13]

Try some patches soaked with Kroil,followed by a brass brush and then more kroil  and let it soak for awhile, then run a dry patch down and see what the patch looks like.

[Blair]

Hopefully this is not just old BP fouling.
This usually causes a great deal of corrosion on the metal surfaces of the bore.
More often than not it will be a build up of leading and BP, which will not normally be quite so bad for the bore.
A Lot of soaking, scrubbing and brushing will help to remove much of this. as Ranch 13 suggests.
I have seen some .22's that didn't look like they had any rifling left in the bores. that clean up rather nicely with a good cleaning. and shoot quite well afterwards.
Just a thought on my part?
My best,
Blair

[john boy]

but what's odd is the last 6"-8" look pretty good.

Cholla, I hate to be an ogre but the dirty bore at the breech end my be pitting from mercuric primer foul. 
Since it is a BP era rifle - Lehigh Valley Lube & Cleaner on a brush will remove BP foul - pure turpentine mineral spirits will remove lead ... if
any,so you can get a look at the metal in the bore 

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

UPDATE-

I did a few cycles of plugging the bore and filling it with my lead removal concoction that consists of 50%  H2O2 and 50% vinegar. I'd let it sit for 5 - 10 minutes, dump it, scrub with a bronze brush wrapped with brass wool, dry, repeat. The first couple of barrels full came out orange and the patches would come out black. Eventually the solution began coming out clear and the patches light brown. At this point I switch to soaking the bore with ordinary Hoppe's #9. When I started neither a patch or brush would grab the rifling, but by the time I was finished they would and the cleaning rod would rotate as it went down the bore. Understand, the bore still looks like it hasn't been cleaned in 100 years, but the rifling is much more pronounced.
Ever the impatient one, I just HAD to load a few rounds and fire it. So, a minimum charge (4.5 grs.) of Hodgdon Clays under a commercial cast 180 gr. bullet was employed. 50 yds., it's the top target, four shots in the area of the black stripe, one a little higher.



At some point, someone installed a REALLY short silver front sight, so the rifle shoots really high. So high that I had to hold at the bottom of the target.

I should have some BP first of next week to try out.

Thanks for all the advice,

CHT

[will52100]

Glad to hear you got it running.  I used to use an electronic bore cleaner for surplus military rifles, many many years of coper and carbon fouling build up.  I first used a home made system, cheap flash light and steel rod.  I later invested in a commercial version, but the home made system works, just a bit of tinkering.  I haven't used the system in years since I haven't gotten a "new" surplus rifle in years, and since I clean after shooting.  Some of the rifles I had looked like smooth bores and days of scrubbing and soaking were getting me nowhere.  This was copper and lead and smokeless fouling, but it all came out.  Just have to change the solution and keep the steel rod wiped off every so often.  Several of the rifles I thought would never shoot straight actually turned into good shooters after the treatment.

[rickk]

I acquired a well used Stevens .22 bolt gun a few years ago that is maybe 70-80 years old.

I suspect it had never been cleaned...ever. It looked like a smoothbore.

I tried a brass brush with little luck.  Out of desperation I resorted to a stainless Steel brush. This is the one and only gun I ever used a stainless brush on. Normally, I wound not even consider it, but in this case it seemed like there was little to loose.

A lot of stuff came out with said brush, and there was actually rifling in there after all.

Rick

[Noz]

Glad to hear you got it running.  I used to use an electronic bore cleaner for surplus military rifles, many many years of coper and carbon fouling build up.  I first used a home made system, cheap flash light and steel rod.  I later invested in a commercial version, but the home made system works, just a bit of tinkering.  I haven't used the system in years since I haven't gotten a "new" surplus rifle in years, and since I clean after shooting.  Some of the rifles I had looked like smooth bores and days of scrubbing and soaking were getting me nowhere.  This was copper and lead and smokeless fouling, but it all came out.  Just have to change the solution and keep the steel rod wiped off every so often.  Several of the rifles I thought would never shoot straight actually turned into good shooters after the treatment.

I'm interested in your homemade electronic bore cleaner. How did you do it?

[mehavey]

Cholla... was that a 44-40 ?

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

Cholla... was that a 44-40 ?

  Nope,  it's a 38-40.

[St. George]

Try a 'Lewis Lead Remover', and failing to locate that, a stainless steel bore brush in a larger caliber - threaded from the chamber and pulled through to the muzzle.

That, or a used M16 Chamber Cleaning Brush - both will work the same, being oversized.

Hoppe's #9 won't touch it, though Kroil might, as will BreakFree.

Scouts Out!

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

I already tried an undersized bore brush wrapped in brass wool. This same set up removes lead from my revolver barrels in very few strokes. Do you think a steel brush would be any better? I've just about resigned myself to the fact that the rough bore is from years of not being cleaned. No matter though!  It shoots quite well.

  CHT

[mehavey]

If the pits are so deep that the copper ChoreBoy doesn't
clean them out (forget steel), then the first lead bullet down the
barrel is just going to fill the pits in again.   

Unless you are really having leading/accuracy problems, just shoot
it -- Pits`n All-- and clean normally.  Pretty soon you'll hit steady-state.

[St. George]

Had I not seen it work personally - I wouldn't have recommended it.

Bronze and copper are soft metals - stainless isn't - a 'worn' stainless bore brush in a larger caliber or the Chamber Cleaning Brush for the M16 and oil can clean when nothing else will.

Removing newly-deposited lead from a newly-made modern barrel is a little different from removing old, burnt-on powder fouling of many years' duration from an old barrel.

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

[Coffinmaker]

I am of two minds (don't bring me into this you twit!!).   Ok, Just one.  My first Knee Jerk Response is from years as a Gun Plumber.
A clean, free running, sanitary pipe ......... is a good pipe.  A spooged up, clogged pipe, not so good.  So the order of business is scrub a dub dub.  Usually you can tell when you've gotten all the suppose your going to get out of the pipe.  And then you see all the pitts.
Then my other brain kicks in.  It says, Burnishing just polishes the pitts.  Doesn't fix anything.  If you can see lands and groove all the
way to the other end, you good.  Shoot it.  If it will shoot to where you want it to, and group, don't worry about the pitts.  Your pretty
much gonna fill em in with lead anyway.  Clean as normal to get the BP or Sub fouling out, have fun with it.
If it still won't shoot after all the previous effort, cut your losses.  Find someone who can punch out the old bore and re-line it.  Since we are taking about a genuine A-1 real honest to goodness '73, don't re-barrel.  Re-line!!

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

Noz, there are all kinds of plans on the net, but basically it's a couple of D cell flash light batteries and a steel rod.  You need something to plug the breach end, and a few wraps of tape to keep the rod centered in the barrel close to the top.  You want the breach end plugged, but the centering tape is just to keep the rod from contacting the barrel metal and should let fluid pass the rifling, not too tight.  Hook the + side up to the rifle, and the - to the steel rod.  Fill the barrel with a mix of water, windex, and vinegar.



This is the basic idea, except I never plugged the top, and since I didn't want any solution bubbling over and onto my finish I used masking tape and make a funnel at the top with some paper towels to catch any overflow.

This works, but the commercial systems out there are pretty reasonable and work a bit faster.  I did do several rifles just like this and was a huge time saver when dealing with 60 year old copper and powder residue.  Just run it for about 15 minutes and dump the solution and clean the rod as it's basically electro plating in reverse.  Clean the bore with a brush and patches, if still fouled run again.

[Noz]

Thanks. That's going into my "repair" files for future use.