Changes to Lyman 457125 bullet mould?

[PJ Hardtack]

In checking the Lyman web sight for a DC 457125 mould, I saw what appears to be a change in the bullet design.

The line drawings of the bullet types Lyman offers show what appears to be a crimping groove where there once was grease groove on the 457125. All the other drawings show clearly the design of the bullets.

Only way to know is to ask Lyman. Perhaps they did it as so many seat out the bullet one or two grease grooves to get in more powder. No, they don't offer a DC mould in that design.

Lee offers a DC 45-70 500 gr mould, but it's a gas check design. They offer a flat nose 450 gr as well. I'm wondering if it would be a good long range bullet. Looks like it would be a winner on game.

[Drydock]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/214596/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-459-500-3r-45-70-government-459-diameter-500-grain-pointed-round-nose?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Hows about this one, my M1884 Trapdoor loves it.  Every 457125 I've had the nose is too small in diameter.

[PJ Hardtack]

Thanks, Drydock! You can't beat the price on Lee products.

To my knowledge, the Lyman 457125 has always had an under bore sized nose by design. Mine mike .447-.448, depending upon which mould they came from. The lands (if that's the term) mike .457.5-.458, again, depending upon mould and alloy.

This is ideal for my purposes as I size .458. The bullets get a slight shine, if that. I've played with sizing .457, .458 and .459. and settled on .458 as suitable for all my rifles.

There was interest in pointed 45-70 bullets when I first got into BPCR's. I bought a Lyman 500 gr  "Schmitzer" mould that produced very pointed bullets. They shot well enough, but looked odd for use in a rifle of the 1870's. I had a smith modify it to reduce the point somewhat, but still not enough for my liking. Haven't used it for years.

Mike Venturino and another BPCR shooter went to the Aberdeen Proving Ground to see if the Billy Dixon shot was ballistically possible. No one believed that a RN 45-70 bullet could carry as far as it did and rise to the height they rose to, all verified and checked by their high tech instrumentation. If I could find the story, I'd quote from it.

The point? At the velocity of 45-70 BP bullets, there is no advantage to pointed bullets. I have an article by Steve Hornady somewhere wherein he states that he can make a RN target bullet that will shoot like a hot damn, but no one would buy it. In his opinion, spitzer bullets only have the edge on RN past 500 yds.

My wife's .243 and 6mm prove this as she has only shot RN 100 gr bullets from them and refuses to change as she has won every match where she has entered.

[ndnchf]

Lee did a pretty good job of making a mold to duplicate the original goverment 45-70 hollow base 405gr bullet. It's too bad they don't make a mold to duplicate the original government 500gr bullet. Saeco makes a very nice one, but at 4-5 times the price.

[Drydock]

Unfortunatly, in the trapdoor 3 groove bore that undersize nose slumps on firing, with no accuracy at all.  The tapered Lee nose on the mold I linked does not slump, and works great. The Lee design also carries a LOT of lube.

 I've also got the Lyman "Schmittzer" and a good shooter it is.  I have often wished that Lyman would take that Schmittzer groove body and add a 449-450 RN to it, making an excellent M1881 mold.  Unfotunatly Lyman is a shell of itself these days, and I tend to avoid their products.

I have read the Venturino article on the Dixon shot, and a great read it is.

[PJ Hardtack]

Think you could post a link to that article on this forum? Might be of interest to a lot of folks who don't know the potential of a BPCR shooting a heavy RN bullet.

I like the idea of the extra lube carried by the Lee bullet. I'm opened minded enough to give it a try. Not that I'll be doing much shooting past 500 m.

In the past, Venturino has had the clout to influence Lyman (and others) to make changes to their mould products, the Schmitzer being one of those designs requested by the BPCR crowd.

[Drydock]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/843705/posts

This is a better one:  the Sandy Hook tests of 1879.

[Drydock]

http://powderburns.tripod.com/sharps.html

And here is the Venturino article.

[PJ Hardtack]

Thank you, Sir! Much appreciated and much to ponder on.

Many BPCR shooters will now have a lot more respect for their rifle's potential.

[Drydock]

Both articles are in the BROW archives.

[PJ Hardtack]

According to reviews on the Lee DC mould, it drops bullets at .459 from the mould. Sizing them to .458 like my other bullets ought not to be an issue.
Gotta try one, just for the sake of increased production and the fun of playing the Lee against the Lyman product.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/214596/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-459-500-3r-45-70-government-459-diameter-500-grain-pointed-round-nose?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Hows about this one, my M1884 Trapdoor loves it.  Every 457125 I've had the nose is too small in diameter.

[Blackpowder Burn]

If you happen to have access to a copy, the Venturino story is also recounted in his book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

[Ranch 13]

Having spent a lot of time with that 500 3r bullet, it's a rare occasion it will strike a target nose first beyond 300 yds.

[PJ Hardtack]

If you happen to have access to a copy, the Venturino story is also recounted in his book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

Got two copies. Gotta look for it ......

[PJ Hardtack]

Having spent a lot of time with that 500 3r bullet, it's a rare occasion it will strike a target nose first beyond 300 yds.

Interesting! What calibre and what is the rate of twist in your barrel?

[Ranch 13]

45-70 and 18 twist, but that's not the problem. The problem is those 3 lube grooves and that long nose, the bullet isn't very well balanced and those large grooves cause a bit to much air drag. The rcbs 82084 bullet has 3 large grooves and while it shoots well to 800 yds, it has a ton of problem past that distance.
The other problem with those lee blocks there's not enough metal , so they heat up quick and will warp if you try to cast more than 50 or so at a time.
That Lyman government bullet is about as good as it gets for a trapdoor. If looking for something just a bit lighter then go with the Saeco 645.

[PJ Hardtack]

I've heard that complaint about aluminum blocks before. However, cooling the blocks in a fan or setting them on a damp cloth to cool them occasionally can take care of any overheating.

I generally use more than one set of moulds in a session, and they tend not to overheat as a result. No lead smears, etc.

Being a believer in "... if'n it ain't broke, don't fix it .." philosophy, I may just stick with what I know works - the Lyman 457125.

[Ranch 13]

There just flat out isn't enough metal on those lee blocks. Casting at -10 might outside might keep them from warping, but I seriously doubt it. Tried the two mould deal with them, one cast just fine a .459, the other on a good day might make .457..

[PJ Hardtack]

Good to know from a 'been there -done that' perspective.  I must be gettin' old as I'm willing to learn from the experience of others.

I've got a set of NEI alloy blocks and they are generous in the amount of metal. Looks like Lee wanted to keep production costs to a minimum.

I've had read that quite often you get slight differences in the bullets dropped by multiple cavity moulds. Couldn't matter less with pistol bullets, but might make a difference with long range rifle bullets. When I'm using both my single cavity 457125 moulds, I keep the bullets in separate piles and load them in different batches.

Right now I don't have the skill or experience to detect any difference at the distances I shoot. It's my goal to shoot effectively out to 500m. There is a 1000m range two hours+ north of me, but that would be a rare occasion to shoot past 500m.

[PJ Hardtack]

Just watched a you-tube video of a guy shooting the bullet in question at 1000 yds. Target was a 36" (!!!) diameter round gong.

Average flight time - 3.57 seconds at an average 1025 fps from a ML Whitworth "Volunteer Rifle", not a BPCR. That surprises me, as I believe the bore of the rifle is .451. He shot 16 rds under very windy, gusty conditions. Rifle was scope mounted.

He scored several hits and several near misses that would have struck a more realistic 6' target. He discounts the stories of the bullet being unstable past 500 yds.

Other google hits offer similar disclaimers, citing improper casting technique as the problem. They seem to favour the same bullet design, but cast from a single caviity mould to prevent overheating and bullet deformation upon dropping the bullets.

All the guys that shoot long range (1000 yds) seem to favour long, heavy bullets, so it would appear that "bullet droop" is not a universal problem.

On a subsequent test with the same rifle and bullet, he fired a series of shots at 1545 yds under very gusty conditions. This time he used paper patched versions of the bullet, which means he had to further swage/size the bullets in order to seat them. He also claims to have used 90 gr charges of his home made powder!

While he scored no hits, he did recover several bullets which showed no signs of instability, the bullets entering he earth point first. However, since he was not using a brass cased BPCR, this is not really a valid test of the bullet design.

Somebody- anybody! take this on as a challenge and see what results you can achieve from a brass cased 45-70 BPCR with the Lee 500 3R bullet. The truth is out there - somewhere ....... (fades to black with the theme from the "Twilight Zone" playing in the back .... )