Meanea Stamps

[Skeeter Lewis]

A question about the oblong stamp that Meanea used - not the oval one. Sometimes it says 'Cheyenne WT', sometimes 'Cheyenne WYO' and sometimes just plain 'Cheyenne'. Do pards know when the plain 'Cheyenne' was introduced?

[Horseapples]

Skeeter, I have found a D buckled canvas cinch, slanted saddle pockets and what looks like a short barreled double action holster all carrying the F.A. Meanea Cheyenne stamp without any W.T. or WYO. on the stamp.  To me they all have a later feel but I think someone like Rick Bachman would be able to give you a knowledgeable answer.

[Buck Stinson]

Well, for what it's worth, here's my opinion.  We all know the Cheyenne, W.T. cartouche is Wyoming Territory.  So we can date that to pre-1890, that is if we're sure Frank Meanea didn't use it after Wyoming became a state.  Making that claim would probably be a stretch.   I've seen well over 100 Meanea makers marks stamped on all kinds of leather gear over the years and do not ever remember seeing the W.T. on the small oblong cartouche.  I have observed only CHEYENNE, WYO. and CHEYENNE on the small oblong makers stamp.  There are two different sizes of this small makers mark.  The one that reads CHEYENNE, WYO. is very small and slightly longer than the one that reads only CHEYENNE.  I found that the smallest oblong cartouche seems to appear on nearly all of his small pieces, everything from wallets and spur leathers to cuffs, chaps, holsters and belts.  The larger of the small oblong makers mark can also be found on most of these smaller items, but I've never seen it on cuffs or spur straps.  For what it's worth, here's my suggested time line.  CHEYENNE cartouche 1885 to 1900.  CHEYENNE, WYO. cartouche 1890 until his death in 1928.  Now, how confused are you?

[Skeeter Lewis]

Thanks, Buck. That tells me exactly what I need to know.

[Horseapples]

A frien of mine has just found the oblong  Cheyenne stamp on a saddle that Jim Laird's book says entered the catalogue line in 1912 if that's any help?

[Buck Stinson]

Horseapples,
Do you know which photo your friend is referring to and what page it is on?  Meanea's most popular saddle was the #14.  It was first pictured on his early photo advertising card I believe in 1885.  Although it went through many changes over the years, it was still listed in his last catalog (#20) which was printed in 1923.  I have one of these original catalogs which happens to have a hand signed letter from Frank Meanea to the customer he sent it to.  This letter is dated October 26, 1927.  The inside cover of the catalog has been hand stamped in red ink with the wording "F. A. Meanea, October 18, 1927.  He says in the letter that this is his latest catalog and pricing, but he is planning to print a new catalog with increased prices.  He died in 1928, so this was in fact his last catalog.  His #14 saddle was available as a #14P (plain) #14X (with stamped border tooling) and #14 Full Raised hand Stamped (hand flower carved).  Charlie Russell's carved #14 Meanea saddle is in the C.M. Russell museum in Great Falls.  It is to say the least a masterpiece.  Probably one of the most beautiful saddles I've ever seen.  It is a very early #14 loop seat with the large button top horn.  Condition and color are nearly as new.

[Horseapples]

Buck I am generalising, the saddle is a full seat, not a loop seat and it is the full seat that Laird says first appeared in the 1912 catalogue (from memory).  He says they were available custom order previously but I get the feeling he's alluding to 1910 rather than 1900.

[Horseapples]

So what do we know about the F.A. Meanea Cheyenne stamp?  Was it used from 1912 to Meanea's death in what 1928?  From 1900 to 1912? From 1890 to 1928?  Are there any other distinctive pieces, easily dated (as new models in the line for example) that carry the stamp?  Would it then be possible to definitively put a start and end date on it's use as can be done with the W.T. and WYO. stamps?

[Buck Stinson]

Until his passing, Jim Laird and I had been great friends since the early 80's.  We bought, sold and traded vintage cowboy gear back and forth for many years.  Some of those items I still have.  We also had this same discussion many times about trying to put a definitive date on the different makers marks used by Frank Meanea.  We didn't have much luck.  The dates I mentioned earlier are estimates through the conversations we had had over the years.  I think the 1885 to around 1900 dates would be fairly close.  In dating some of this stuff, you have to keep in mind that when Meanea was sitting at his bench making this gear, he never considered the fact that we would be collecting it 100 years later.  I doubt that he was concerned about being that consistent in the use of either of the small cartouches.  If one was handier on the bench than the other, I'm sure he used whichever was close by.  I wouldn't think it at all unusual for the earlier CHEYENNE mark to be found on later items.  I think I can safely say however, that it would have been a rare occasion that he would have used this stamp on any saddle or saddle part, other than the latigo carrier.  Never seen it on a saddle skirt.  I've only observed the large oval cartouche on saddle skirts.  Another thing that makes dating the use of these stamps very difficult is the fact that Meanea at times had a number of employees working in his shop and he even farmed some of his work out to other shops in the Cheyenne area, especially after around 1915.  As a side note, Jim told me one time that he was walking through the old Meanea shop on West 17th Street in Cheyenne and as he passed from the front area to the work shop in the back, he looked down on the floor and saw the old large oval W.T. saddle stamp being used as a door stop between the two rooms.  He also said that for many years, the large wooden F. A. Meanea shop sign was leaning up against the building in the back alley.

[Horseapples]

Buck,
thank you for your reply.  Firstly I would like to say that I am somewhat jealous of the time you and Mr Laird spent dealing in all this old gear and I appreciate the knowledge you've passed on.  However, at this point I cannot agree with your 1885 to 1900 estimate for the CHEYENNE stamp and I would like to discuss with you why not.

A friend and I spent some time googling F.A. Meanea gear and came up with the following examples carrying the Cheyenne stamp:-

A short barrelled half skirt single loop holster looking very much like a double action revolver holster.
A canvas rear cinch fitted with D buckles (the 1912 catalogue still carries the old style O buckle cinches)
Wrist cuffs, still advertised in the '12 catalogue.
Slanted saddle pockets as advertised in the '12 catalogue while the California saddle (1885 - 1890)  of page 15 of Mr Laird's book carries the older straight down style saddle pocket.
A full seat saddle carrying the Cheyenne stamp on the saddle seat in a tooled oval just behind the fork.

None of these things scream pre 1900 to me, there can be no way to say with certainty that a piece offered in catalogues 20 years apart came from a particular date without individual provinance such as President Roosavelt's holster had.  I was in error in my previous post, Mr Laird said that full seats began to appear after 1910, not as I mis-remembered 1912.  Certainly then, this full seat saddle must be taken as proof ( even without the cinch, holster, saddle pockets and cuffs) that F.A. Meanea was using the Cheyenne stamp after 1910?  What I do not have, is any evidence of a dateable item that carries the CHEYENNE stamp that must have come from the 1880's or 1890's.  I would however, be delighted to see such if it came to light.

[Buck Stinson]

Horseapples,
Check out the holster on page 121 in Packing Iron.  I got this one in a trade from Jim Laird many years ago.  There is also an article in an old American Rifleman (November 1981) by Berkley McCollum that shows a left hand Meanea holster for a 5 1/2" Colt with this stamp and I have a buckskin lined, right hand 5 1/2" Meanea with the Cheyenne stamp.   Hope this has been of some help.

[Horseapples]

Thanks Buck.  Unfortunately I don't have access to the American Rifleman back copies so I can't really comment on them :-(

I do have Packing Iron though :-) It illustrates my confusion perfectly.  The 7 1/2" on page 121 looks exactly the same in style and construction as the 5 1/2" holsters on the previous page taken from the 1912 catalogue.  So what tells us that the page 121 holster is 1885 to 1900?  The Cheyenne stamp without a W.T. or WYO. address, just like the stamp on the full seat post 1910 saddle?  But hang on, if the stamp was put onto a post 1910 saddle and the holster construction is the same as the 1912 holsters, how do we know that the holster on page 121 of P.I. isn't also post 1910?  Do you see my confusion?

[Buck Stinson]

Yes, I understand your confusion.  However, you're asking questions that will probably never be answered.  I have had well over 40 original Meanea holsters in the past 50 years and as I've said, can only give you my opinion.  My holster rig on page 121 can be dated 1885 to 1890 because the pattern is NOT exactly as those made after that period.  Meanea bought the E.L. Gallatin shop in 1880 or 1881.  Jim Laird and I considered the fact that Meanea early on,  probably used patterns left by Gallatin.  We know this for a fact regarding saddles, especially his #1 and #2 Texas patterns.  Why would he not do the same thing with holsters and money belts?  If you compare my Meanea holster and those made by Gallatin, you'll clearly see that the two are very close in pattern.  When you look at later Meanea holsters, they have taken on their own look or design.  In other words, he changed the patterns.  They are slightly, but definitely different.  Trigger guard cut-out has a different shape as does the bottom of the skirt.  I've had a number of Meanea holsters made later in production, that are entirely different than the earlier patterns.  I've never been convinced that they came from his shop, but are those jobbed out to other Cheyenne makers.  He was very busy making saddles and simply didn't have time for the small stuff.   As I have always said, I can only give you my opinion.  I've never worked in F. A. Meanea's shop, so as a collector, that's the best answer I can give.

[Skeeter Lewis]

Thanks, Buck and Horseapples, for this informative exchange. It contains all we'll ever be likely to know on the subject. Skeeter

[Buck Stinson]

You're more than welcome.  Hope it has been of some interest.

Buck

[Horseapples]

Thanks Buck for your input and your knowledge.  Skeeter, just trying to help bud.

I have been something of a stitch counter over the years Buck so appreciate what you're saying about the small differences in development and slight changes in style.  It's a very valid point well made.  When I first saw the 1910 to 1928 saddle with the CHEYENNE stamp on it's seat I wondered if that cartouche was for Meanea's mail order gear, after all, you don't need an address stamp on the goods if you have ordered it from the full postal address in the catalogue.  I also gave some thought to it being applied to his sub contracted work so that he could tell the difference should there be any returns or quality issues later down the line.  Possibly even for his mail order sub contracted work?

I guess we'll never know for sure.  The stitch counter in me would love to have a Meanea holster found somewhere with the bullet proof provenance of the T.E. Roosevelt holster (from the Collins shop I think?) and a CHEYENNE stamp on it to remove all doubt but I guess that's unlikely to appear after all this time.  For now the best we can do is weigh the opinions of the most knowledgeable people in the field, as an archaeologist would.  What I think we can say, without doubt, is that the CHEYENNE stamp alone cannot be taken as proof that an item pre dates 1890, 1900 or even 1910 as some of the European collectors do.  Would you agree Buck?

[Buck Stinson]

I think it is safe to say we'll never know for sure.  The collector in me says "who cares".  Sometimes it's more fun to take a step back and just look at this old stuff for the beauty it offers.  Most collectors could care less which Meanea stamp was used on the pieces they own.  We all know Meanea made great stuff as did many other early saddle makers.

[Cliff Fendley]

I agree, I don't care which one stamp was used, anything with the Meanea stamp is a prize to me.

[Horseapples]

Flicking through Packing Iron I was reminded of this thread.  Page 164 shows a Meanea rifle scabbard described as being made in the Wyoming Territory period.  It carries the rectangular Meanea stamp with a blurred Cheyenne W? address.  If Mr Rattenbury is not mistaken about the date of manufacture this must then be a rectangular stamp with the W.T. address. The holy grail.

[Buck Stinson]

I've seen the Meanea scabbard in Bill Mackin's collection.  It has the CHEYENNE, WYO. stamp, just like the holster on the front cover.  This is the smallest of the two oblong cartouches.  As I mentioned earlier, the only Meanea cartouche I've ever seen with the W.T. mark, is the large oval makers mark he used on saddles.  Personally, I think this scabbard is post 1890.  I say this because it does not have the profile of most scabbards of an earlier period.  Just my observation.