High quality chainfire video

[john boy]

Sir Charles - I like this wording in the 2nd link ...

Chamfering the chambers does three things for you.  First: instead of shaving off a lot of lead and ending up with an undersized, and perhaps unsymmetrical ball, the ball is 'swagged' into the hole, thus making it possible to have a gas tight seal (assuming no trapped powder grains).  Second:  because you aren't cutting lead,  but are swaging the ball in place (with just a very thin ring of lead shaved off), the rammer force is usually noticeably less.  Third:  because some or all of the balls in your cylinder won't be undersized or unsymmetrical by having been cut, each ball should fit the bore and engage the rifling better.  When a ball fits the bore and engages the rifling properly, you should get a much more precise shot.

Don't believe I have ever seen anything about chamfering the mouth of the cylinders before ... sure makes sense too

[will52100]

Interesting article.  I have though, and continue to

Load a cylinder the conventional way with lots of Crisco on top of the bullets so that the cylinder is sticky with the stuff and then fire your pistol.  For safety, on the next loading, load no more than two or three chambers with powder, but be extra sloppy and get some grains on top of the cylinder and don't use revolver wads.  Ram down the bullets without brushing anything off, then plaster on the Crisco as you normally would.  Hold on tightly to the grip and then fire the pistol.  Hold on tightly to the pistol because I can almost guarantee you that at least one or both adjacent chambers will also go off. 

With no chain fires.  I maintain that a smear of crisco or bore butter or what ever does exactly one thing, it helps keep fouling soft, which does two things, keeps the cylinder easy to turn and accuracy from degrading as fast.  Now I don't put too much crisco on anymore, because it's just a waist, but I used to.  I think just for grins I will give it a try tomorrow and test that out just to make sure I'm not missing something.  To be sure I don't spill powder every time I load, but I've spilled powder enough times and not had a chain fire to make me relatively certain something else is going on.  Also, how hard is it to ignite powder that's been soaked in vegetable oil?  Something I will have to try out for myself, I just don't see it happening that way, but I could be wrong, as I have been plenty of times in the past.

Also something to remember, after the first firing you've got a coat of fouling in the chambers.  When you load a ball or conical into the chamber the proper sized ball is scraping some of the fouling back so you've got another seal between powder and flame.  Granted it's a pretty thin seal, but as long as hot gas doesn't get to the powder your golden.  The fouling might or might not stop a near microscopic path from communicating hot gasses.  Not sure, just an idea.  Also think even a thin coat of vegetable oil (crisco) left after the first round is fired would help plug any SMALL holes or leaks.

I will agree whole heartedly about chamfering the cylinder mouths.  I've had a couple that the mouths where actually smaller than the chambers from a bur from the front of the cylinder being dressed.  A buddy of mine recently got an 1860 army Uberti from Taylors and the mouths had a slight chamfer from the factory.  I'm less concerned about "shaving" a ring of lead than I am about swaging the ball down to chamber diameter.

Personally I believe most chain fires come from the rear, either recoil sets a cap off, or a nipple has a large opening and the flame travels to another cap and sets it off, ect.  I had to shorten nipples on a second gen 1860 colt just to be able to lower the hammer enough to cycle the action.  If I hadn't shortened the nipples they might have made the caps proud enough to set one or more off by striking the recoil shield.

In over 25 years of shooting I don't know how many pounds of powder and pounds of lead out of all the colt revolvers and remingtons I've only ever had one chain fire.  And I know exactly how and why it happened.  I am by no means an expert, but my take is most, maybe not all, but most are coming from the rear.

[hellgate]

I believe the original Colts had slightly tapered chambers so the bullet always had a snug fit and therefore no grease was needed to get a good front seal.

[Coffinmaker]

I don't mean to brag.  OK, yes I do.  About half way thru this season, I started to experiment with a chamfer at the mouth of the chamber(s).  The primary reason was to ease seating the ball.  Secondary was to reduce the ring the chamber cut from the ball and
to actually swage the ball into the chamber for a better seal.  It Worked.  Really cool to read someone else had done the same, for
an even better reason, at it works quite well for that too.  That's a fib.  It wasn't to seat the "Ball."  It was to square up and ease the
seating of the EPP UG-36 BULLET.  And give a better gas seal with the bullet square to the chamber when rammed home.

Today, after careful study of the second reference from Sir Charles, I chamfered the chamber mouth(s) of one of my 44 cylinders and
then seated a "dry ball" then punched it back out.  The chamfer/swaging really increases the contact bearing surface of the ball to the
chamber.  Gonna be really fun to see the results onna range.

Coffinmaker

[hellgate]

Coffinmaker,
You might even notice a little bit more recoil. I had one 44 "Navy" who's chambers I reamed out to .450 and another I did not. I could tell the difference in recoil between the two otherwise identical guns.

[will52100]

Coffinmaker, you ream the chambers out, or just chamfer the edge of the chamber mouth?  All I've ever done is use a hand reamer and take the sharp edge off the chamber mouth.  If you re-blue the bright ring it's hard to tell it's been done.

I've heard of reaming the chambers out for better accuracy, have never tried it, but would love to give it a shot one day.

[hellgate]

Be really really sure you have a good vise in your drill press that lines up the cylinder perfectly vertical. I did not. I reamed 5 cylinders (that's 30 chambers) out to .450 by hand turning the reamer in the drill press but they were off center and I ended up ruining 3 cylinders. Luckily I could get ASM & Uberti cylinders to swap back in. Since then I have left everything stock even though I hate the idea of a .448 chamber and a .450 bore.

[will52100]

I've got a small mill that I use for a precision drill press, shouldn't be too hard to make a jig up.  I have way more trouble with the hammer notch sights and shooting high than I do with the slightly undersized chambers.  I've been using Lee's conicals with good results as well.  Still, would like to do it, just have to find the time.

[Coffinmaker]

Will52100 and Hellgate,
No.  Did not ream the chambers out.  I would really prefer to have a nice tight fitting Ball or Bullet.  I just cut a nice chamfer on the chamber mouth.  The chamfer served two purposes, originally.  I had trouble keeping the EPP UG-36 bullet aligned for ramming.  It wanted to tip off square and go into the chamber wonky.  I was concerned it was leaving gaps between the chamber wall and the driving bands
which would promote gas leakage (Bad Joss There).  The EPP UG bullets have a small butt, or base below the bottom driving band
that should help stabilize the bullet for ramming.  It doesn't fit tight enough to the chamber mouth to do that. 
The chamfer allowed the small base to guide the bottom driving band into the chamfer itself which stabilized the bullet for ramming.  You
still have to watch what your doing and exercise some care.  It worked very well indeed for swaging the EPP UG driving bands into the chamber.
Accuracy.  Well ok.  I can see where some folks are a tad uncomfortable with a chamber smaller than bore diameter.  Sorta like chamber throats being undersized.  I can't actually explain the difference with Cap Guns, if there is one.  Basically, I play CAS.  I don't even try to punch paper at 25 yards.  In fact, I have never bothered to shoot my Cap Guns past about 12 yards.  I don't shoot off a rest except to
"adjust" the height of the front sight.  As long as I can keep everything inside a 12 X 12 CAS target, shooting from my hind legs with a
gun in each hand, I are a happy camper.
I have had no problems with leading.  Have had no mentionable accuracy problems, have not had a Chain Fire (knock on wood) so, for me,
I see no reason to ream the whole chamber out.  I shoot Pietta guns, and a 451 swaged or cast ball work just fine. 
I'm sure someone whose bent is to punch holes in a bullseye target at 25 yards might find fault with my reasoning, but for CAS work or
an actual gunfight, 7 yards is all you need.  Additionally, the Gunfights I was actually involved in took place at about 7 feet, max.

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

You bring up a good point Coffinmaker.  End of the day, I have way more trouble with sights on these guns than I do with any ammo issues for paper punching.  I'm not much for paper punching myself, I keep a couple wood target stands for paper, the rest is steel.  The steel gets the lion's share of the action.

[Noz]

A Lee hand held case chamfer device works well to chamfer the mouths of chambers on black powder guns.  I got the idea of doing so when a friend gave me an 1851 made in 1862 that had chamfered mouths on the chambers.

[Coffinmaker]

I went way high tech for my chamfering.  I use two countersink cutters for woodworking.  Nitride coated.  Pick em up from Lowes very
reasonable.  Work a treat.

Coffinmaker

[Professor Marvel]

I went way high tech for my chamfering.  I use two countersink cutters for woodworking.  Nitride coated.  Pick em up from Lowes very
reasonable.  Work a treat.

Coffinmaker

Those same countersinks also work a treat for a "poor mans muzzle crown" . Just keep it square and straight, then follow up with 200 grit and 300 grit wet-or-dry . Some folks use a piece of dowel at the same angle as the countersink, some folks use the "ball of the thumb" some use "round stuff" with valve-grinding compound. Then there's this dealy :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-Brass-Muzzle-Crown-Lapping-gunsmith-tool-lap-rifle-pistol-crowning-barrel-/221559199998?hash=item3395f518fe:g:CzsAAOSwQItUJNBl

If you are not doing 100 yard shooting this sort of crowning job is just dandy.

yhs
prof marvel

[will52100]

Got a link or pics Coffinmaker?  I've used a hand 82 deg. countersink, but I had it on hand.

[Coffinmaker]

Professeur Marvelous!!

I beg to disagree!!  LOUDLY!!  Really LOUDLY!!  I have a very hi-tech method to cut a rifle barrel.  HACKSAW.  Follow a mark.  Squaring up is done with more Hi Tech tools.  Machinest Square and a nice sharp Bastard File, applied judiciously.  Once Square, I put a very light
chamfer in the bore of about 1/64 depth.  Then I wrap a 5/8 Ball Bearing with 350 or 400 wet/dry and scrub the little bevel smooth.
then I polish the FLAT muzzle to a nice 2000 grit shine.  Make it pretty.  What was my point??  Where was I going??  Lemmas review, oh yea.  I can shoot really swell little groups all the way out to 200M with this type of "crown."  Poor Man's Crown indeed.  Humpf.  OK.  I
am cheap.  Not poor, just CHEAP!!  Our ancestors built really fine target rifles with a flat muzzle and just a touch of rebate or bevel on the
lands and grooves.  Worked a treat for them.  Works for me too.  Hah!  So There!! (Actually, it is a GREAT Poor Man's Crown, no lathe).

Will 452100,

I must confess Electronic Tech ........ ah illiterate.  I don't know how to copy/post hyper-links nor post photos.  I do have a suitable substitute tough.  I'll shoot some pictures wid my iPhone and have a friend post em for me.  I don't think the actual "degree" of the
bevel is terrible important as along as it's about 45 or better.  I'll include pix of the bevel tool(s) too.

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

Thanks Coffinmaker, just trying to picture in my mind what tool exactly your talking about.  My father does wood work, I'm more into metal work.

[Coffinmaker]

Will52100,
It may be a day or two before I can get photos posted.  It's a common countersinking tool.  If you go to "woodcraft.com" and go to
countersinking tools, look for the countersinks that are titanium nitride coated.  I use a 3/4 inch.

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

You mean this? http://www.woodcraft.com/product/04N56/countersink-titaniumnitride-coated-34-diameter.aspx

If so, that's pretty much what I use, except mine has a screw driver type handle.

[Coffinmaker]

That would be the puppy.  I also have one with a screwdriver handle.  I like tools.  Hand tools.  Fun.

Coffinmaker

[Professor Marvel]

You mean this? http://www.woodcraft.com/product/04N56/countersink-titaniumnitride-coated-34-diameter.aspx

If so, that's pretty much what I use, except mine has a screw driver type handle.

one wants to have a countersink with "many Teeth " which are better than "fewer teeth" in order to avoid chatter, like this in wood

I too have been using these things for some time, to start a "crown" in my ML rifles...

But I must confess, I have a terrible time drawing a straight line, drawing a line square to the perpendicular,
seeing the line, following a line with a saw, manually filing to a line, filing flat, keeping my file flat, keeping my file square ...

well i think you get the picture.

In spite of regular practice, hands-on education ,and the beatings persistence, I have never gotten really good at manual filing.
It is a failing I have learned to live with and adjust for.

jigs help a lot, and any sort of tooling or machine is greatly appreciated. I never really achieved truly flat-and-square surfaces until
several years ago when a series of strange coincidences at HF allowed me to combine a coupon, internet sale, another coupon, free shipping and my Lovely Spousal Unit and MIL working together to get me a cheap Chinese benchtop mill for under $300 !


but i digress...

A long time ago when I started butchering cutting on ML barrels, I discovered my above inability to achieve "flat and square" manually, which led to barrels progressively  getting shorter and shorter as I nibbled away trying to correct my deficiencies ,
               and that's how they invented "blanket  guns"   :-)  

 
and so the thought occurred to me , "what if I could find a piloted cutter that indexed inside the barrel?" ....

And while trimming some brass with my little hand-held Lee case trimmer the little light bulb went on.


Since I already had one and several "trim gauges" ( ie "pilots" in my mind) for a few calibers,  I found a gauge that fit my ML barrel, bushed  it with tape, and had at it. The stupid thing marvelous device cut a lovely recessed flat, which I then "countersunk" , smoothed and polished.

They work really well on crowning pistol barrels, and MIGHT work with some tweaking butchering adjustment as a piloted reamer
for truing up C&B cylinders..... or one can actually purchase a piloted reamer in order

to avoid chainfires  SEE - BACK ON TOPIC

I have been using these, followed by a hardened many-tooth countersink , followed by wet-or-dry ever since to achieve a good flat-and-square, coned, mini-recessed crown. It seems to stay inside minute-of-soda-can pretty far out, so I am a happy camper.

I am still learning how to use the mill, but making chips is fun. One day I will learn how to properly use the benchtop 10x23 lathe they got me as well . So far I am turning plastic and aluminum and trying not ruin threads learning to cut threads :-)  but  in theory said lathe will cut perfect crowns as well as make julianne fries and cure male pattern baldness .... but removing a barrel and then lathe setup takes longer than doing a crown by hand....

ah the dilemmas ...

Oh, and if attempting to modify a part of any kind, especially buggering up reaming cylinders for accuracy, I have found it efficacious  to have several sacrificial parts to destroy upon which to practice prior to ruining working on the real one.

yhs
prof babbles marvel