Acceptability of Reproduction Sharps .45-70 Carbine

[elhombreconnonombre]

I gave been trying for some time to acquire a decent cartridge rifle with which to join in the GAF game. I have currently given up on the idea of a Martini-Henry.
However, I may have access to a  Sharps .45-70 cavalry carbine in the future, that I would like to inquire as  to its acceptability for GAF.
It is known that Capt. Leander McNelly of the Texas Rangers bought Sharps cartridge carbines from  Saul Lichtenstein's store in Corpus Christi and these were used by his company in the "Las Cuevas War" in 1875, which was an extralegal punitive incursion into Mexico to retrieve stolen livestock and property.  After attacking the wrong ranchero and nearly  being surrounded by Mexican federal troops and paramilitary units, a company of U.S. Army cavalry was stationed on the Texas side of the Rio Grande to cover McNelly's withdrawal and to repel  any  Mexican incursion into Texas.
If acceptable, my proposed impression for GAF would be that of a Ranger in McNelly's  with a Sharps .45-70 carbine (black powder cartridge) and pretty much any single action black powder percussion or cartridge/cartridge conversion revolver(s) of that era.

What say ye fellers?

[pony express]

Yes, with a Sharps Carbine and a SAA, you'd be good to go.

[Forty Rod]

I had one a number of years back and seldom found anything that kicked harder using full loads.  .45-70 needs more meat in front IMO.

I'd hang a 24" octagon barrel about 7/8" across the flats on it and more suitable front end wood.

[Good Troy]

seldom found anything that kicked harder using full loads.  .45-70 needs more meat in front IMO.

I have a trapdoor carbine, and agree with the statement about the full load kick.  My first shots with the carbine were 405 grainers over about 31 grains of IMR - 4198.  These were left over handloads that I used in a 30" bbl highwall that I had previously owned.
OUCH.  I wasted this ammo at the range, along with several blood vessels in my right shoulder and chest. For a while, I used the same bullet and powder, but reduced the charge by about 20%.  It was tolerable.  Then I went on a quest for a BP load.  For BP, I use a 405 g bullet with 3.7 CC (about 55 grains of volume) of 3F Goex, compressed with a die, and then 1 CC of grits compressed by the bullet on seating.  This is still a stout load, and I've not used it in a match, only on the bench.  For practice rounds, I've been using the 405 g bullet and Trailboss within the load data supplied by IMR.  Saturday, I fired over 40 rounds of the Trailboss loads, and I'm not sore.  These loads just go "pop"...

[Grapeshot]

IMHO one does not need the grits with 55 grains of Black powder.  Just seat the 405 grain bullet into the case until it hits the powder column.  Taper crimp in place.  This is how the Army loaded them.  Very mild load.

[Good Troy]

IMHO one does not need the grits with 55 grains of Black powder.  Just seat the 405 grain bullet into the case until it hits the powder column.  Taper crimp in place.  This is how the Army loaded them.  Very mild load.

Thank you, Grapeshot...I'm willing to try it next time!  The story is, I had the compression die set-up for a longer bullet ( a hollow base) when I went to make my first loads.  So, I threw in the grits, as I'd compressed below the base of the bullet.  I had a good group, so I left it alone.
It is A LOT of compression.

[PJ Hardtack]

According to Mike Venturino, the US Army used wads and/or a cardboard tube over 55 grs (carbine load) and a 405 gr bullet.

My '74 carbine is in 50-70 and is not punishing to shoot with full loads. I do know that it generates less pressure (and recoil) than the same weight of lead and powder in a 45-70.

It's a function of the larger bore, the laws of physics and ballistics.

Try 28 grs of 5744 for a pleasant shooting load.

[Jake C]

If we're discussing .45-70 loads, I've found that 55 grains of 1.5F Olde Eynesford under a 415 grain bullet was rather tolerable to shoot, if not pleasant. Granted, that is out of a rifle barrel, so your mileage may vary if you're using a carbine.

[elhombreconnonombre]

Thanks pards. The plan now is to use the Sharps with 55 gr bp and a 405 gr pure lead bullet in Starline brass. I dont have an 1873 SAA,  so since I understand single action sidearms are not the main focus of the game, I'm thinking that my Pietta NMA with Howell cartridge conversions should be OK period wise.
Loaded with a hollow wooden bullet containing birdshot.the Sharps  could serve as a foragers shot gun.

[Drydock]

The Sharps .45-70 carbine is perfectly acceptable for GAF usage.  In the stated portrayal, the .45-70 caliber is an acceptable caliber substitution for the issue .50-70.  

There were 2 loadings of the .45-55-405.  The initial loading used cardboard wads or a tube liner, with an oal of 2.55".  This is the M1873 carbine load.  Later, in 1886, the army deleted the wads and simply seated the bullet to an oal of 2.45 as opposed to 2.55.  In modern cases you can seat to 2.55 over 55 grains powder and achieve light compression.  Description of the various arsenal loadings can be found in Wolf, pgs 120-121.

And you're NMA is very acceptable, indeed it would perhaps be more accurate to McNellys outfit than an SAA.  SAAs were still mostly going to the army at this time.  I suspect most of the Rangers carried percussion or conversion revolvers.

[PJ Hardtack]

Way back when my only BPCR was an H&R Cavalry Carbine and life was simple, I knew from nothing about the "right way" of loading BP for it.
Mine came with the original type sight, not the later fold down modern sight. I scraped off the glossy finish with pieces of broken glass and oil finished the stock. A friend lightened and improved the trigger. Looked 'original'.

I had a reference that mentioned the carbine load was 55 grs (same load I shot in my P-H Musketoon) with a 405 gr bullet. I was casting soft lead Minie's so it was simply a matter of getting a Lee 405 gr mould.
I shot 'as cast' bullets (what was a sizer/lubricator?) hand lubed with the only stuff at hand - bicycle wheel bearing grease! I simply wiped it on by hand, seated the bullets, crimped and wiped off the excess.

Petroleum based lubes are not supposed to work with BP, but that carbine didn't know that. I shot as long as I had ammo without a problem. Cases were washed in soapy water. I didn't own a polishing tumbler, so over time, my brass was very discoloured.
Who knew about powder compression, avoiding an air space between powder and bullet, wads, etc. I guess it was just dumb luck that everything seemed to work out well.

I did a lot of off hand shooting with it at BP matches, even against ML's, and did well. I knew a place in the mountains where I could wander at will at any rock out to 200 yds was mine.

Kind of miss those days of innocence before I became 'knowledgeable' about stuff like powder compression, lubes, sizing, annealing, etc. .....

[Trailrider]

Historically, the cavalry was issued cartridge converstion M1869 Sharps carbines, cal. .50-70 in the 1870-1873 period, prior to issuance of the M1873 Springfield in .45-55-405 (except where some company commanders requested .45-70-405 ammo for their troopers). In point of fact, a small number of the Sharps carbines were retained by various cavalry companies for both target practice and issue to their civilian quartermaster employees (teamsters, packers, scouts and interpreters) through at least 1876 (records absent after that). I would opine substitution of the .45-70 Sharps for a .50-70 should be acceptable.  So far as loads are concerned, I have used 36.5 gr of IMR3031 behind a 405 gr bullet or 38.5 gr of IMR3031 behind a 385gr cast (Lyman #2) bullet. It burns a bit dirty, but is approximately a factory duplication load that I didn't find objectionable in original Trapdoors. I have also used 28 gr of IMR4198 with a 2-inch square of single-ply toilet paper poke GENTLY into the case over the powder, and seated by the bullet. [Usual disclaimer: I can assume NO liability for the use of this data in any guns other than my own, and maybe not then!]

[Pitspitr]

I would opine substitution of the .45-70 Sharps for a .50-70 should be acceptable.

As Drydock said, It is.

[PJ Hardtack]

Trailrider

All of the published data re: using the 40% rule for smokeless in BP rifles does not recommend using any kind of over powder wadding. Steve Garbe (Editor BPCN) has published data on this a few times over the years.

I started using 5744 over 3031 and 4198 when I read that it was not sensitive to where it was in the case. However, I have never had any issues with the other powders either.

By "dirty", I presume you mean there are some unburned powder grains left in the barrel. I first noticed this with my Trapdoor carbine when it was noticeable in the breech after ejecting cases. Never caused any issues for me.

[Charles Isaac]

I'd hang a 24" octagon barrel about 7/8" across the flats on it and more suitable front end wood.

    Sounds like it would be dandy for a stroll through the woods!

[Trailrider]

Trailrider

All of the published data re: using the 40% rule for smokeless in BP rifles does not recommend using any kind of over powder wadding. Steve Garbe (Editor BPCN) has published data on this a few times over the years.

I started using 5744 over 3031 and 4198 when I read that it was not sensitive to where it was in the case. However, I have never had any issues with the other powders either.

By "dirty", I presume you mean there are some unburned powder grains left in the barrel. I first noticed this with my Trapdoor carbine when it was noticeable in the breech after ejecting cases. Never caused any issues for me.

My own pressure-time curve data with the loads described showed quite acceptable curves. However, most folks would find it easier and pressure self-limiting using BP or equivalent. BTW, factory loads do use smokeless powders (NON-canister grade, however).

Yes, by "dirty" I meant exactly what you stated, especially with IMR3031. Not a problem, except where partially-burned "husks" could get into the breech of a Sharps. Easily blown out with a good puff or by turning the rifle upside down and gently "burping" it.

[PJ Hardtack]

One of our self-styled experts once told me that those unburned grains of powder were "hard on my barrel" and I shouldn't use a powder that wasn't 100% consumed. Right ..... ;>)

This same 'spert said the same thing about bullets for BPCR's cast from wheel weights. Yep, they're out there ......

[elhombreconnonombre]

Well pards, I wish to thank all you fellers for your comments. Now  just need to fill out the application info from the website and join up.
Thanks a bunch,
Ronnie
(aka elhombreconnonombre on  here and most forums, but now I'm thinking about a handle like "Sargeant Smokey Bexar", pronounced Smokee Bear" if not taken in SASS, NCOWS, etc.)

[Trailrider]

One of our self-styled experts once told me that those unburned grains of powder were "hard on my barrel" and I shouldn't use a powder that wasn't 100% consumed. Right ..... ;>)

This same 'spert said the same thing about bullets for BPCR's cast from wheel weights. Yep, they're out there ......

Don't know about that 'spert. As long as you're not getting hangfires, the only problem with those husks is they might gum up the action after awhile.  Don't know what he said about BPCR bullets cast from wheel weights. Know an' ol' boy who didn't use straight wheel weights...Lyman #2 equivalent and smokeless powder in a .45-2.4" HiWall who could drive tacks! 

[PJ Hardtack]

Don't know about that 'spert.
Know an' ol' boy who didn't use straight wheel weights...Lyman #2 equivalent and smokeless powder in a .45-2.4" HiWall who could drive tacks! 

At what distance? I've read that BPCR's do better at long range with BP. Haven't read about anyone doing well at long range with smokeless.