Cimarron Model P NM and Stoeger STD Uberti Cattleman

[Black River Smith]

IMO Uberti's have changed too many features that made them tops, at least for me.  The Cim New Model P and the standard Uberti differ only by the lack or presence of the hammer safety and visibility of proof marks.  There may be other issues that are not evident to me but......

My issues with them are they both have laser checkering on the hammer, they both have a square rear sight and the ejector/extractor  housing is 1/8" shorter than the barrel (barrel 4 3/4 and housing is 4 5/8).

I may be-able to cut the grooves in he hammer to look and feel better but the housing is a different story.

So my question to the experienced smiths is - is there a new housing out there that is the proper length and will fit the new UC?  I believe the housing changed lengths sometime after 2011-12, but the screw position is still the same on the barrel.  So, if nothing new is made, do I have to hunt up an older model housing, in order to correct this visible mistake?  Will a Pietta housing fit a UC, since the Pietta is correct length?

[Coffinmaker]

Somehow your measurements are .......... wonky.  A 4 5/8 housing would be "longer" than a 4 3/4 barrel.  S far as Uberti parts are concerned, If Uberti changed the Ejector housing, they undoubtedly changed it throughout their line.  So ...... in answer to your first question, yes.  You'll have to hunt up an older manufacture Uberti to get a different housing.

Before I retired, I never had occasion to swap a Pietta Ejector housing onto a Uberti.  So ........ Dunno.  I did build a pair of rather strange
"Frandenpistols."  ASM frame, Colt barrell, Pietta Ejector, Uberti Trigger Guard/Backstrap.  Half the lockworks were Colt parts and half were Pietta.  Good looking guns when done and function was perfect.

If you have a friend with a Pietta, give it a try.  Always "Fly Before you Buy."

Coffinmaker

[Trooper Hook]

Coffinmaker, your answer that a 4 5/8 inch housing is longer than a 4 3/4 barrel is wrong. 3/4 inch is 6/8 long .

[Coffinmaker]

Ah ...... SASAFRASARAPAFRASSIT PATOOEY!!

Some how I confused myself.  I do that from time to time.  Math is not necessarily my strong suit.  After all, 2 and 2 are 5 seven out of nine tries, dontcha know.

Rest of it's ok though.  I didn't have to add or subtract or do fractions or tenths or any of that edjumedicated stuff.  Humpf.

Coffinmaker

PS:  After all, 3 and 3 are 33, yes??

[Trooper Hook]

Coffinmaker, no problem, I was in school long before Common Core and New Math came along and stuff was taught in a simple and direct matter not the overly complicated way they do it now.

[Black River Smith]

Coffinmaker: Thanks for the comments and suggestions.  Sorry about the confusing way of presenting it.  I do respect your experience and professional comments you leave on posting throughout the forums.

Trooper: thank you for noting and mentioning the correctness of the measurements.

[Abilene]

There are a few other differences, the Model P will have charcoal blue screws and proper fonts for barrel markings.  As for the ejector housing change, which I had never noticed, Cimarron last I was there and looked had a number of ejector housings in stock.  Might be older ones.  Possibly you could get someone there to measure one for you.  VTI might have some older ones as well.

[Coffinmaker]

Allow me to put fourth a little ............ personal insight.
At this point it time, all the manufacturers of reproduction Single Actions are building their guns to a price point.  Desperately trying to maintain their market share.  And, the market is shrinking, not expanding.  In fact it has ben shrinking for several years.  Any time
the manufacturers can find a way to get the desired result faster and cheaper, there going to do it.
If, in those halcyon days of yesteryear, a laser checkering cutting tool had been available to Colt, bet your bottom dollar, cut checkering\
would have immediately disappeared.
There is a certain misunderstanding of industry.  Uberti is ultimately NOT in the gun business.  They are in business to MAKE MONEY.  It
just happens their vehicle is making guns.  Were Uberti able to switch products and have a more beneficial profit margin, Guns would disappear overnight.  Uberti has already started to branch out their product line to other types of guns, scaling back their production of "cowboy" guns.  Pietta has done the same thing.
As we go forward, we are going to have to be happy for what we are able to get.  USFA has gone Darwin.  Colt is going Darwin, and incidentally hasn't delivered production guns for many years now.  Custom shop only.  Neither Colt nor USFA evolved and or improved
the same old design.  Stupid.
For the games we play, best value for dollar is Pietta.  They take less work to set up.  Better looking??  Maybe Uberti.  However, lets just be glad we can still get new build guns.

Happy Sunday All

Cioffinmaker   

[Professor Marvel]

And Happy Sunday to You Too, Cioffin ( a small joke from my small mind) !

My Dear Monsieur Smith -

I read your missive with interest, and then went out onto the interwebs to discover that your ejector housing is the correct length at 4 5/8" ...
it is actually the barrel which is too long at 4 3/4" . The "standard " ejectors have remained the same length for all these years, it is merely the Italian company now changing "their" standard barrel length, most likely for cost reasosns as Our Friend CoffinM has pointed out.

Thus the solution (if you choose to implement it) would be to shorten and recrown your barrel :-(

I screwed up again.
rugers ar 4 5/8
colts have been catalogued forever at 4 3/4


prof marvel

[Abilene]

And Happy Sunday to You Too, Cioffin ( a small joke from my small mind) !

My Dear Monsieur Smith -

I read your missive with interest, and then went out onto the interwebs to discover that your ejector housing is the correct length at 4 5/8" ...
it is actually the barrel which is too long at 4 3/4" . The "standard " ejectors have remained the same length for all these years, it is merely the Italian company now changing "their" standard barrel length, most likely for cost reasosns as Our Friend CoffinM has pointed out.

Thus the solution (if you choose to implement it) would be to shorten and recrown your barrel :-(

hope this helps
prof marvel

Hmm, you sure about that?  I have always been under the impression that Rugers are 4 5/8" barrels, but Colts are 4 3/4"
So you are saying that Colt barrels are 4 5/8" but they just call them 4 3/4" ?  I'm away from my guns so can't measure anything.

[Black River Smith]

Prof Marvel,

While you have provided an alternative solution to this problem/issue of mine.  It definitely is a funny one and more costly to me.  You should know that you can't believe everything on the internet.   I am certain you are just joking.

Now!!!!! If you where any bit serious about your research results and believe that the housing is correct at only 4 5/8" for a Colt then I have a lot of reference books with pictures of actual Colts and years of articles and text that where written in error.

I just have never seen an actual short barrelled Colt SAA where a portion of the barrel is visible ahead of the ejector housing except for a known 5" barrelled original or the standard 5 1/2 & 7 1/2".  No evidence of a step on the 4 3/4" barrels.  Just do not know why Uberti would take this approach after all these years of being the leader in appearance to actual Colt.

Abilene, thanks for the comment and your response.

[Professor Marvel]

I screwed up again!

rugers are 4 5/8
colts have been catalogued forever at 4 3/4
anything else ....

I had best stay silent until my brain gets more oxygen and less caffiene.

yhs
prof marvel

[Coffinmaker]

I'm sorry to report ......... Per Fesser, but you have made a grievous error.  Again

Your Oxygen to Caffeine ratio is obviously upside down.  It's a known fact that TOO much oxygen and nitrogen in the blood do bbad
things to your cognitive ability.  This condition is exacerbated when your Caffeine level drops and your "Caffeine Low Light" illuminates.

When this condition presents itself, first exhale ............ Then immediately brew up some fresh Coffee.  Or ...... pull in and stop at your
nearest Starbucks and restore your Caffeine balance. 

Remember sir .......... Coffee is a FOOD GROUP!! 

Coffinmaker

PS:  I actually prefer the appearance of my Open Tops, which I have cut the barrels to the ejector rod housing.  Now 4 7/16 barrels.
      Or, even more, my Cap Gun Snubbies.  3 inch barrels. 

[Pettifogger]

Somehow your measurements are .......... wonky.  A 4 5/8 housing would be "longer" than a 4 3/4 barrel.  S far as Uberti parts are concerned, If Uberti changed the Ejector housing, they undoubtedly changed it throughout their line.  So ...... in answer to your first question, yes.  You'll have to hunt up an older manufacture Uberti to get a different housing.

Before I retired, I never had occasion to swap a Pietta Ejector housing onto a Uberti.  So ........ Dunno.  I did build a pair of rather strange
"Frandenpistols."  ASM frame, Colt barrell, Pietta Ejector, Uberti Trigger Guard/Backstrap.  Half the lockworks were Colt parts and half were Pietta.  Good looking guns when done and function was perfect.

If you have a friend with a Pietta, give it a try.  Always "Fly Before you Buy."

Coffinmaker

In defense of Coffinmaker's math he is actually correct.  A 4 5/8" ejector housing is longer than a 4 3/4" barrel.  Barrels are screwed into the frame and the length is measured end to end, i.e., measured from where the barrel sticks out inside the frame to the muzzle.  The ejector housing installs in the front of the frame.  Thus an ejector housing that is 4 5/8 long would stick out past the muzzle of the barrel and be "longer" than the barrel.   

[Black River Smith]

Please give it a rest.

The ejector does not reach to the end of a 4 3/4" barrel as witnessed on all std Colts and prior to 2012-13 Uberti clones.  The measurements are based off the barrel length like normal that is why I stated that the housing is 1/8" shorter than the barrel. Not disassembled lengths.

Thank you all for the help you are providing, not the insults you are giving.

The main question was and still is:  are there replacement housings that the experience smith has used to fix this incorrect appearance?

[Pettifogger]

Insults?  You sure are thin skinned. Most of these posts contain a little humor.  Sheesh.  Colt ejector housings are not flush with the muzzle.  If they were they stand a chance of being blown off by muzzle blast.  What you may be seeing is that the newer Ubertis have more muzzle crown.  The easiest solution would be to remove the barrel and turn the muzzle down until it looks like what you what.  This is the muzzle of a 1957 vintage 4 3/4" Colt 2nd Gen.  The ejector is not flush with the end of the muzzle.

[Black River Smith]

Do not mean to and have not been up till now.  I just need good info like Abilene gave.  But it moves other directions.  So, after studying guns for 35 years; being in CAS for 25 years witnessing and buying what gun manufacturer and dealer changed thru the years; and having been in the NCOWS Original Cat since its inception, yes, I guess I sometime have a right to get a little direct at certain comments.

Now most posters here have posted and have had great comments, that I agree with, on The Authenticity of colt clones.  But the new Uberti's from Beretta have lost something and I want to get it back.  You know that cliche 'can you tell the difference from 3 feet' comment.  Well with the new ones 'this housing' Yes, it is different.

See Cimarron site for 4 3/4" NM: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/cartridge-revolvers/model-p-sa/model-p-2/model-p-4-3-4-38-wcf-4-3-4-in-model-mp685.html

and now the Pietta Frontier: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/cartridge-revolvers/frontier-sa/sa-frontier-pw-1/sa-frontier-pre-war-44-wcf-4-3-4-in-model-pp420.html

Enlarge them and tell me you do not see the difference, that step after the housing.

Also take a picture of your Colt 'from the other side' and tell me which one it more closely represents from the two above.

I still appreciate all the help.

PS Pettifogger:  yours is a 2nd gen while Cim Model P's are advertised as 1st gen.  This is not a posting about Cim being bad but how to fix this issue.

 

[Pettifogger]

2nd Gen, 1st Gen, 59th Gen, none of the Colts are flush with the muzzle.  Here is the same 2nd Gen from another "angle".



I can angle the camera a bit more and actually make the ejector housing look longer than the barrel.  The Photoshop photos on the distributor websites are often out of perspective.  The only way to tell for sure what the measurements are is to lay a straight edge across the muzzle and measure the difference between the end of the barrel and the ejector housing.  Even the amount of crown can create an optical illusion as to how far back the ejector housing appears to be sitting.  If I were concerend about the appearance I would remove the barrel, screw the ejector housing onto the barrel and take a measurement and then face the barrel until it looked like what I wanted. 

This is not a comment directed at you, but I am always amazed on the number of posts about how "authentic" the Italian clones are.  There are even people that comment that the current production Colts are not "authentic."  Since Colts varied quite a bit through all three generations, and within the generations, the only way to get an "authentic" model is to pick what era someone is intersted in and buy a Colt from that era.  A colt made in 1874 is not identical to one made in 1894.  The Italian models are meant to be shooters, not collective pieces.

[Black River Smith]

Pettifogger,

We are argueing semantics again.  Your housing is what I want on these Uberti's.

You cannot tell me you do not see the step or barrel metal ahead of the housing in this photo from Cimarron.  Just enlarge and look at the metal from the screw to the end of the housing it is shorter on the new Uberti's


Whatever,  this topic is over for me.

[Abilene]

Black River - are you basing your statements regarding Uberti shortening the housing on the pictures from Cimarron's website, or have you actually seen any of the guns?  I ask because, the link you gave to the 4 3/4" Model P is not a picture of an actual gun!  The guy who does most of Cimarron's web stuff photoshops one gun to make different barrel lengths.  If you look at their pics of the 5 1/2" and 7 1/2" pre-war Model P's, you will notice they are the same gun (look at the case colors on the frame). 

Now, if you have other evidence than those pictures, that's fine, but that particular picture is probably not a good example to show.