Goex FFFg 45lc load

[45 Dragoon]

I agree with Prof Marvel, Coffinmaker, et al (Latin).

It only makes sense that one carry a "powder measure" with them instead of a set of scales. It only seems natural that you would still call what your measure "throws" by the weight that it was originally measured. Why wouldn't you?
Let's say there was a measure of weight called "hij" and 20 "hij"s was a good load of black powder for your rifle. Rather than carry scales, you hollow out a piece of wood or antler that will hold that amount. It's still 20" hij"s.  There's nothing wrong with calling it "hij" just because you measured it by volume.
Now, if the bp measured in the days when all this started (none are alive today to ask) weighed the actual amount in grs. , why wouldn't you call it the same. By the same token, if the actual weight isn't the same as our modern powder, so what? You have an established measuring system used by bp shooters that isn't a problem until someone makes it a problem.


You know . . . . .  why is it called "blueing" when it's really more  black?  (Boy, this will get um going guys!!!)

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[Ranch 13]

So when you volume boys are loading your smokeless powders, do you use a scale to set your powder measure, and then go about the business of charging cases, or do you just say well I'll drop this much in, that ought to work just fine?

[PJ Hardtack]

I load my smokeless rifle charges on a 'lectronic measure/dispenser. I weigh a few and then periodically thereafter. It is infallible to date, a 1/10th + -  variance being an extreme variation.

Read an article by Mike Venturino after he shot with Clint Smith at his school. They were shooting minute of steel targets out to 700 yds with .308's.  Clint loads his ammo with range pick ups, unsorted as to brand. He uses a standard powder measure (forget the brand) and does not weigh every charge once doing a run.

This isn't precision shooting, but that isn't what he teaches. He's after effective engagement of man-sized targets at practical distances. Works for him.

I find that there is so much variance in brass cases that once I add in the human factor (the nut behind the trigger), I can't take advantage of more extreme measures for the shooting I do, 200 m being my self imposed limit on game. Playing on steel, this
gets stretched to 500 m. Works for me.

We better drop this topic on this forum .....

[45 Dragoon]

Well Ranch13, it says in black powder load charts "by volume" ,  different subs are compared to black powder "by volume".
Not to mention the difference in a 3 or 4 gr. mistake with blk powder won't turn your prized possession into scrap or your hand into a stump.
Do you reload smokless?  

I was shooting  bp before pyrodex was introduced and was measuring by volume.  I've seen lots of photos of volume measures from " back in the day" so I question your statement about the introduction of "volume" measure. I never used scales until I started loading smokless. Why? Because you CAN put too much powder in a cartridge.  You can't put too much bp in a hand gun cartridge!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

And yes,  as far as smokless goes, after I see what my VOLUME measure is throwing (on the scale) I continue loading with the VOLUME measure (checking twice on the scale every 50 cases) because it "drops this much in there".  Those that weigh every load are loading for accuracy or would rather load than shoot!

Are you saying (in a nice way of course) that those the use " dippers" are idiots because it "drops that much " in there? 
You realize you told on yourself in your question don't you? You . .. you  volume measurer you . . . !!!!

[Ranch 13]

 Show me references to where it says to load by volume? I have a number of references from the  1800's that explicitly say grains.
I also have blackpowder measures that I bought new in the 70's that drop within very reasonable tolerance of the grains setting on their staff of 2f blackpowder.
The Lyman 55 powder measure graduation marks on the cylinders were originally marked to give a person the actual grains weight of powder.
The point about using a powder measure and scale loading smokeless is to show that smokeless powders are measured in volume when using a mechanical powder drop.
I use 37 grs Goex 2f in the 45 colt, because that's how much fits in the case without undue compression, and gives velocity just exactly to what the original 45 colt were loaded to..
As to spending to much time weighing charges? There are times it pays off in spades.

[Dick Dastardly]

The essential thing is to load consistently, regardless of method of measure.  With black powder that can vary in weight per volume from manufacturer to manufacturer and from batch to batch for any one manufacturer, volume works out best for me.  That said, I do weigh my charges and label my boxes accordingly.

For Cowboy Action main match shooting, volume only is satisfactory.  For distances beyond 200 yards things get a mite more particular.  This is one more reason premium black powder pays off.  It is more consistent from batch to batch and your loads will tell you this if you chronograph them.  Also, don't kid yourself when it comes to using the chronograph.  Loads that produce the smallest SDs, all things being equal, will also be the most consistently accurate.

DD-MDA

[Blair]

I have a set of what is commonly called Pocket Money Scales made in London around 1720 to 1730's.
The weights are set up in Drachma.
I have no listing for translating Drachma into grains. But because I have a set of the weights I can weigh them on my scale that is in grains.

Now, this is not to say a hunter would carry such a thing with them while hunting for reloading their firearms.
What it is meant to say is that small scales were available for being able to make up some sort of hollow measuring device to drop an accurate powder charge for the firearm.

I use old brass cartridge cases, trimmed to the proper length, to make up a volumetric measure for dumping my BP loads. But I cross check this, periodically with scale to make sure it is spot on.

I do the same cross check with Smokeless powder measures when I have used smokeless powder in my reloading. The amount of powder in the hopper may cause slight changes in the weight of powder dropped.
Cross checking with the scale is just a good and safe practice to get into, especially when using smokeless powders.
My best,
Blair

[Coffinmaker]

It seems we have drifted this thread clear into the next country.  Does anyone remember what the original thread was all about??

Maybe Baby powder or ....... something?

Coffinmaker

[Lefty Dude]

Oh Boy;  This here is getting serious stuff now, OMG !

[PJ Hardtack]

For Cowboy Action main match shooting, volume only is satisfactory.  For distances beyond 200 yards things get a mite more particular.  This is one more reason premium black powder pays off.  It is more consistent from batch to batch and your loads will tell you this if you chronograph them.  Also, don't kid yourself when it comes to using the chronograph.  Loads that produce the smallest SDs, all things being equal, will also be the most consistently accurate.

DD-MDA

One of my buddies who was very much into BPCR's was a devotee of perfection, to include loads with the lowest SD. I showed him an article by Mike Venturino in which he could not 'splain how he got the best accuracy from a load that had the widest SD spread.
Read the same in an article where the author tested several batches and brands of .22 LR ammo in his Win 52 target rifle.

I think if you're shooting past 500 m, everything matters. I don't, most of my shooting confined to 200-300m. And I'm not shooting for score so much as minute-of-steel-Cowboy.

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho PJ,

Then, it would make sense to load to the widest possible SD load?  Not.  Consistent velocities out the tube will have the least deviation on the target.  Go with stability and consistency.  Precision is your friend.

DD-MDA

[Coffinmaker]

Does Chiclets chew better than Wriglies??  Standard deviation between sticks of Double Mint??  Is Bubble Gum really better ?? 

Can you chew gum with Dentures?? 

YES!!  3f whatever will work in 45 Colt!!

Coffin (Trouble) Maker 

[45 Dragoon]

How 'bout bazooka ! You didn't mention bazooka !! Or Swell,  you don't like Swell bubble gum? Huh?!!

Lol, sorry Mikey, I just had too!!!  

[Coffinmaker]

Crikey Mate!!
I completely forgot Bazooka Bubble.  Also double Bubble Bubble.   

May an Elephant caress you with his to .................. 

coffinmaker

[PJ Hardtack]

There are so many factors to consider .... if it works for you, stick with it!

I'm still the weak link, the nut behind the trigger. If I do my part and I've loaded with reasonable care (and I try hard to), ALL of my rifles are capable of shooting better than I can hold on any given day.

[Blair]

PJ,

Are you trying to take this thread off the "gum watch"?
Some have tried to keep it on track with to OP's quest.
Be careful, the Moderator seems to have lost control too.
My best,
Blair

[Coffinmaker]

Aw Cummon Blair!!

You had your sense of humor surgically removed or sumpin 

The OP's question was answered two pages ago.  Just havin a little FUN 

Coffinmaker

[45 Dragoon]

He just wants a little sticktoitiveness!!!


I'm thinking a little bubble gum would help . . .

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[rickk]

Usually the annual  "VOLUME verses WEIGHT" thread ends up with two people pacing, turning and firing at each other.

[Dick Dastardly]

One by weight, one by volume.  Both killing a dead horse.  Consistency is your friend, however you achieve that.

DD-MDA