Armi Sport 56-50 Spencer Owner Lyman Dies Needs Reloading Help, help!!!!

[Wolf Killer]

Hello Lads,
After 50 plus years of shooting and reloading, I have hit a brick wall in trying to load this damned Spencer.

This is a Armi SPort Spencer in 56-50 from Taylors, Starline brass, Lyman 515139 bullet mould and Lyman 56-50 dies.

I received the Spencer last September, and bought the lyman dies at the same time it was five months to find brass, and was able to find 100 rounds, Back then I cast the lyman bullets in 1-16 alloy and sized them to .512, SPG lube, and full length resized the brass, found an OAL that would somewhat work and had some fun with the 100 rounds . Winter came and went with no outdoor shooting, and the Spencer went to a gunsmith for a trigger and sight job.
Lots of guns to be shot this spring and summer, and just got back to the spencer last month,

Heres the problem that is driving me nuts. I took my once fired brass out to reload, full length resized, a light expansion just enough bell to start the bullet, and next to seating, this is were everything has gone to Hell.
I seat the bullets  and check length with calipers, when I noticed just the pressure of the calipers moved the bullet down into the case, What the? I found that with just light finger pressure I could drop the bullet almost to the bottom of the case, and could almost shake it out. on some bullets that were just a hair under .512 would just fall in the case when I set them in the belled mouth.

Tried this again and again, till I sent the dies to Lyman with a long letter.
They came back with the sizer shortened just slightly and the seater shortened as it was not crimping on the rounds I could load, No good, same problem. Bullets start with minimal resistance, but  they go in on their own. I didn't trust the M die expander, so I ordered a .510 expander from 4D dies thinking this was the problem. Nope, same thing the  .512 bullet shows no resistance in seating

I have only been able to load about 10 rounds by carefully seating with the die backing off the seater and lowering the die to crimp, most of the time even this will drop the bullets into the case.

I am stumped, as brand new brass loads just fine, but the once fired brass does not size anymore than a very short portion of the neck, I Loaded a few rounds with the as cast 515139 bullet, and this worked fine with no bulging and seated like a normal bullet would but I am not sure the .515 is correct for the barrel. The test rounds chamber fine and extract easily with the larger bullet..

I read that the older Lyman dies were not correct, So in a fit of desperation ordered a set of Armi Sport Lyman dies from Buffalo Arms, but it's the same thing, only the expander ball is at .510 and it crimps as it should. The sizing problem is still the same. I don't know why Buffalo calls them Armi Sport, as it is the same die number and same dies as the older version.

Gents I am truly getting flustered here, I don't know if I have a brass problem, a bullet problem, a rifle chamber problem, or if I am cursed. I can load new brass with no problem, but fired brass is a no go.

I am almost to the point of cutting off the expander stem to the bell ring and see if that works, as a .512 bullet is not going to load, or selling the whole setup, as I have too many guns to load for now that require extra steps and lots of frustration like my Sharps calibers.

Thanks Gents for the big ear and soft shoulders.

Wolf Killer,

Donald Bowman

[El Supremo]

Hello:
It's early so Two Flints and others with more experience with Starline and Armi-Sports will comment soon.

But, having fussed with Spencers and read lots here, I know that Starline brass has at least different INTERNAL dimensions than Rocky Mountain Cartridge's lathe turned ones, especially greater inside taper.  I have also observed this in Starline cases for other calibers.  If the 56-50 expansion plug is a straight diameter, it will expand the lower portion of the neck area of Starline cases more, causing loose bullets. 

Your frustration with bullets falling quite deeply in the case may be due to this and an oversized chamber.  It's hard to imagine, but others that have worked on Armi-Sport Spencers have seen chambers way oversized.  The phrase one highly regarded gunsmith used was "all over the place".  And...chamber dimensions, at least in the past, have not been constant from one to another!

Anyway, a decently made die should restore the case to SAAMI dimensions, so, if the expander plug is dimensioned to expand the entire inside neck area to probably .510" - .511", the bullet should fit.

I doubt the virgin Starline brass is off dimension, externally.

CH4D makes proven die sets for both original and Armi-Sport Spencers. 

I'd call them and inquire.  They will probably tell you to send new, unworked cases, fired, unworked ones, sized ones and some as-cast and some sized bullets.  By the way, CH4D will want you to understand the differences between the original 56-50 bullet, whch was,outside lubed "heeled" and the more likely used, modern, internally lubed one. Die sets vary for these style differences.

Bullet diameter is a possible issue, but you probably understand that bullet alloy variation will produce (usually insignificant) diameters due to shrinkage rates.  But, the bullet here is essentially 50 caliber and the as-cast, unsized OD should be approximately .003" larger than the desired as-cast, pre-sized diameter.  Then size as slightly as possible to avoid uneven distortion so the bullet is .002" over groove diameter.  And, alloy differences will size differently. 

Please let us know here what you learn solved your problem.  Thanks.

Respectfully,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Drydock]

The Lyman size die is a re-purposed .50-70 die (a tapered case) and does not properly size the straight wall Spencer case.  Replace it with an RCBS .56/50 sizing die, and your problems will be solved.  For now, load your bullets unsized to increase case tension.  They will shoot just fine.  Might even run tighter groups than the sized bullets.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/669518/rcbs-legacy-series-sizer-die-56-50-spencer?cm_vc=ProductFinding

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Drydock:

The case must have expanded quite a bit for even a 50-70 sizing die to not function. 
What can you share about Armi-Sport chambers being oversized, please?

Respectfully,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Wolf Killer]

Gents,
Thanks for the replies.
I have read a lot of references here to buying or owning 4D dies, and this is curious, as I contacted Dave the owner of CH, and he told me that he hasn't made dies for the Armi Sport in 10 years, as he couldn't get correct chamber dimensions from them, though they are still listed on his site, and curiously the info for the Taylor's spencer says the die set is for a .515 bullet, and the regular Spencer dies are for a .512 bullet  , so if you have an Armi Sport Taylor's Spencer and are using 4D dies, what are you using? regular Spencer dies for original Spencers? I also called RCBS and the die Guru there said that his sizer probably wouldn't help as it is spec'd to original Spencer Chambers, Now is this BS, or are these sizer dies working for Armi Sport Spencers?

Not to get off point, but like I said I have been shooting for over 50 years, and I remember when the name Lyman meant something, I usually go to great lengths to no longer buy anything new from Lyman I am still fuming over a M die expander for my 50-90 sharps which is clearly a 50-70, and you have to back the die off an inch to expand or you will crush the case, and being so there isn't enough stem to get the expander ball to flare the case. I had to have my gunsmith cut 3/8th's off the top of the die in order to expand the case I related this directly to Lyman's Tech, pointing out that the instructions for the M die say screw the die in all the way to give full support for the case. I was told to basically piss off, as it was in spec, even though it was contrary to the printed die instructions.

I only bought the Lyman spencer dies as they were mentioned so many time here as working well, but it's not the case for me.

Thanks,

Wolf Killer

Donald Bowman

[ndnchf]

Just as a data reference point, I have the CH 56-50 original dies and use them for my original M1871 Springfield Spencer. It has a 512" expander and I load 515" Rapine 350 bullets. My cases are a little longer than usual, but are made for my rifle. The dies work fine for my application.

[Blair]

Donald,

Have you slugger the bore of your AS Spencer?

What size bullet does your mold drop without sizing? Is this pretty consistent in its size?

I also like to use "old" case polishing med. to fill the cases I use for test/dummy rounds. This helps to keep the bullet from being pushed into the case under the magazine tube spring tension.
My best,
Blair

[Drydock]

The lyman die is a 50-70 tapered sizing die.  The Spencer case is simply not long enough to properly size in that die.  The base diameter of the Lyman die is too LARGE.    The RCBS die is a straight wall sizer.  I have one, it works quite well with my Taylors Spencer 56/50.  As to the chamber size, I don't know or care.  I set the rcbs die out to only size the case half way, ie neck size.   The rounds are accurate, and the cases show no sign of excessive sizing.  

Let me repeat.  Its not the chamber that is too large, its the tapered Lyman sizing die that is too large.  The Lyman die will not work with any straight case Spencer brass.  The Lyman die only works with cut down .50-70 brass, which is thick enough when CUT DOWN to grip the bullet. 

I started off with the Lyman dies, replaced them with RCBS after having the same problems as you.  No size and no crimp.

I cast with a modified single cavity Lee mold that drops .515.  Pan lubed and unsized.  Never slugged the bore.  Loaded smokeless the first year. 40 grains of BP ever since.  The gun is just to easy to clean to bother with smokeless, IMHO.  I can ring a 10" steel plate at 100 yards all day long.  Rested it'll do just under 3" on paper at 100 yards.  Never shot it further.  Shoot SASS, GAF and Armidillos with it.

[Coal Creek Griff]

I've had similar issues, but my bullets (from an Accurate Molds mold) have a small crimp groove. The Lyman seating die just barely crimps the brass into the groove.   The bullets can be turned in the cases, but don't slide in or out.  The completed rounds function just fine.  The sizing die doesn't seem to do much.

CC Griff

[Wolf Killer]

Hello Blair,
I plan on slugging the bore tomorrow, I need to pick up some fishing sinkers.

The Lyman mould is pretty consistent at .515 with this alloy of 1-16 there is a high spot of .516 which is usual in my experience in casting.

I am going to take your advice and buy and exchange this Lyman set for an RCBS set from BACO.

I do not understand why we put up with this stuff, I mean really You pay $1500.00 for a new gun and then dies and brass all the extras, and one would expect it to work without having to go to hell and back visit a gunsmith, or break out the stone and clean up what should have been taken care of at the factory, recut the sights reduce that 15 pound trigger pull, go through different brands of dies, moulds, spend hours trying to find out why your new gun won't work, and spend hours on the web begging for help when you can pick up a discount 1911 for $400 and it goes bang every time. You would think these reproduction gun people would take the hint from Uberti, I have 17 Uberti guns, I just put ammo in them and pull the trigger just like old times, You can spend a lot of bucks "Slicking them up" but I have not as of yet needed to do it to any Uberti gun except change springs.

The thing that pisses me off the most is that it is so damn beautiful hanging on the wall and shooting history when it works.

PLUS I still haven't found a cartridge length that will cycle through the gun without hammering on the lever or firing single shot. If anyone is using the Lyman mould in an Armi Sport what is your OAL? to use as a starting point, since the .518 in the manual doesn't work like everything else with this gun.

Thanks a lot everyone, looks like I won't see the replacement dies till next Friday but will get back to you then.Wolf Killer

[Ibgreen]

Am I to infer that you are working up a smokeless load?  I would suggest maybe making up a black powder load that requires slight compression of powder to prevent your bullet from sliding back in the case.  The load for my original rifle  with Lyman dies uses virtually no crimp (although I am loading a .518 bullet into starline brass).

[Blair]

I would tend to agree with Ibgreen.

I suspect your bullet at .512 to be a bit too small. Closer to the minimum bore diameter (land to land measurement). Where as you probably should be looking at a bullet dia. that more closely matches the maximum bore dia. (grove to grove measurement)
This may also be very important with the 1-16 lead alloy you are using. This mix is rather hard and wont allow the bullet to bump up to fit the grove dia. of the bore. 1-20 mix might be better?
A Bullet sized to .515 or .516 seems to be most common in the new made guns.
I hope this info helps you.
My best,
Blair

[PvtGreg]

Somewhere else on this forum you will find a reference to what I'm going to tell you, but I can't find it just now.

The issue is the that Lyman crimping die is too long, Drydock mentioned in his post (i've not used an RCBS, but I believe it) that the Lyman tapers a bit and the 56-50 as used by the Armisport is too short to crimp right.

I fixed my Die my grinding about an 1/8" of an inch off the bottom.  That fixed it for me.

I understand that the newer dies were fixed, but have no proof.  An RCBS might be the way to go, but again haven't tried it.

Good luck. - PvtGreg

[Wolf Killer]

Hello,
I returned my first set to lyman,They shortened the seater/crimp die so that it now crimps quite well, but there is no neck tension with this sizer when using .512 bullets., so even with a solid crimp, the bullet will spin in the case and telescope down under pressure even some of the .515 bullets are dropping down after expanding, since the Lyman sizer is not geared to the Spencer case and the expander is much too longas it punches down past the taper in the Starline case

I am going to try the RCBS set and hope I get a correct resize and go to a .515 bullet.

I will be going to black powder on this gun, but I was loading a smokeless round to start with to get all the kinks worked, like OAL sights, function of the action, Etc. as it is just easier to do all this without adding all the dirt and grime that goes with black powder.

Thank,

DB

Somewhere else on this forum you will find a reference to what I'm going to tell you, but I can't find it just now.

The issue is the that Lyman crimping die is too long, Drydock mentioned in his post (i've not used an RCBS, but I believe it) that the Lyman tapers a bit and the 56-50 as used by the Armisport is too short to crimp right.

I fixed my Die my grinding about an 1/8" of an inch off the bottom.  That fixed it for me.

I understand that the newer dies were fixed, but have no proof.  An RCBS might be the way to go, but again haven't tried it.

Good luck. - PvtGreg

[KEN S]

I load an original 1865 Burnside carbine.  your chamber is a little oversized, and they expand on firing.  no problem, just the way it is.
after firing you just neck size,   go further down and 3/4 size,  The shell will fit and fire and the bullet will not fall into the case.
  You basically, have oversized fired cases that need to be full length sized.  This is a common loading problem.

35 grains 2F, one card wad, two paper wads over that, and a .515 soft cast bullet.  I size to 515, just to evenly spread the SPG lube. reg Large Rifle primers.
     I get 2  to three inches at 50 yards. and it loads and ejects perfectly.  luck...Ken

[Drydock]

Jeez, no one bothers to read the original post anymore!  Lyman fixed the crimp die, but not the tapered 50-70 sizing die.  Just get the RCBS die and be done with all this!   

[Wolf Killer]

Jeez, no one bothers to read the original post anymore!  Lyman fixed the crimp die, but not the tapered 50-70 sizing die.  Just get the RCBS die and be done with all this!   

I know right? after about 15 replies, the thread goes to hell, as no one reads the original post, like coming in a half hour after the movie started.

Thanks, I ordered the RCBS dies this morning from BACO, just need to get a .515 bullet sizing die for my Star machine.
There is a guy here that makes Star dies, but forgot his name, he made some for me before, but I flaked on keeping track of him. Anyone? Anyone?

DB

[El Supremo]

Hello:
Star sizers, dies and parts are available via Magma Engineering.  Google Star bullet sizers and they should appear.
I have an original which newly obtained dies fit fine.  Suggest that you provide a few sample bullets in your preferred alloy so sized OD is dead-nuts.  Ask for Dustin at 480-987-9008.  The lady that took orders for 40+ years retired last year.  The current dies may be cut from new, old stock blanks and have a polish in the throat that is insignificantly less smooth.  This is noticed only with alloys that are 16Bhn and harder.  HAND LUBE THE FIRST COUPLE WITH CLP OR SIMILAR OIL TO PRE-LUBE THE DIE. 

By the way, how about satisfying our curiosity by providing dimensions for your chamber.  Thanks.

Regards,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Dakota Ike]

Wolf Killer

The guy you may be thinking of for the star sizing die is Lathesmith.  His contact info can be found on the castboolits board.  Excellent work.

[Wolf Killer]

By the way, how about satisfying our curiosity by providing dimensions for your chamber.  Thanks.

Regards,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
[/quote]

Gents,
I am trying to find my chamber cast metal, and will try to get a casting of it by the weekend,

DB