Taper crimp or roll crimp .... ?

[PJ Hardtack]

My Farmingdale Shiloh Business Rifle not only requires full length resizing of cases (especially if fired in another rifle), it
will not chamber a round that has been roll crimped. All my other 45-70 rifles will eat anything I feed them if the OAL is within spec.

What are other people doing for a crimp? I have an RCBS taper crimp die and it works like a hot damn. I once tried loading several taper crimped rds into my '86, but it was not a good idea. The crimp was not sufficient to prevent bullets from being seated too deeply into the cases.

I suppose I could have increased the amount of taper crimp, but then it gets to the point of bullet deformation.

Conclusion: separate loads for lever action rifles and single shots.

[Coffinmaker]

Aw cummon PJ,

Just how are we suppose to postulate, commiserate, submit WAGs, champion our favorite crimp (whether it works or not) and tie the whole shebang to the particular phase of the moon when you loaded the ammo, if in the original post YOU ANSWERED your own QUESTION.  Not fair.  unsporting.  Go sit in the corner!!

Coffinmaker

[PJ Hardtack]

Having a bad day, are we ....?

Sorry to have caused you concern. I was hoping to spark a discussion on crimping in general - the need or lack of it in some single shot rifles, etc.

It was an issue I struggled with it when I first began loading for BPCR's. A friend with a C.Sharps '75 has had good results with cases that he can force fit bullets into - '0' crimp, just straightens out the slight case mouth flaring. They chamber just fine and he has shot well with his loads at Raton.

[Blair]

In single shot BP rifle shooting, After I have fired a case in that rifle, I never resize it or add a taper or roll crimp for target shooting. (this is called semi-fixed ammunition.)
More than one rifle in that same caliber may require some adjusting to get the case all usable in all the rifles.

Now, if I plan on carrying that rifle out into the field with me for hunting, then I will fix the ammunition with a light taper crimp to help hold the bullet in place.
Hope this helps.
My best,
Blair

[Coffinmaker]

Alright then!!!  I'll play

Once upon a big bad range, I played with long range stuff.  After a while, it was a groan.  Lug a 40 pound rifle to da range, attempt to shoot lil bitty groups, got BORING.  Oh, wait ...... that was bench rest with smokeless.

Also played with long range rifle with a single shot and BP.  Had a real nice Repro Highwall in 38-55.  That rifle would cut some of the nicest clover leafs I ever saw.  Well, at 100 meters.  Still shot very well way out to about 350, then started to drift a bit.  Anyway,
Started shooting it with a roll crimp and it shot about like a laver rifle.  Ok, but not real ...... wonderful.  I could ring the "gong" at 200 meters fairly regular.  
Then tried taper crimp.  Actually I was just seating the bullet then running the "bell" back in the resize.  No real "crimp" and I was seating the bullet out to the lands and grooves.  It got real really accurate.  Then the clubs in my area quit shooting long range and it was just me and the rifle.  Boring.  Quit.
But back to the subject.  I found with my 38-55, NO crimp worked the best.

Coffinmaker

[Dick Dastardly]

Properly loaded black powder ammo will have the compressed powder supporting the bullet so it can't get pushed back into the case.  So, that's not an issue.  Now, as to which crimp is best, shooting some paper will tell you what your gun likes.

DD-MDA

[PJ Hardtack]

I wasn't shooting BP when I had the problem with bullets being pushed back into the case.

I've got the book by Ned Roberts and Ken Waters on the history of 200 yd off hand Schuetzen style matches. These guys were real riflemen and did not bother with crimping of any kind. Some even reloaded the same case between shots!

[wildman1]

And then ya got breach seating which doesn't have any kind of crimp. wM1

[Montana Slim]

With MY sharps...I always FL resize, flare, charge, compress, & seat bullet. While seating bullet, I use the roll-crimp, but only to straighten out the flare.

I find that the best way for me to play my game, which is  a "buffalo match", where 20-25 shot strings are needed at various distances with 10 minutes or less set "time" to get the shots off. Generally this is insufficient time for routine cleaning or use of a blow tube. If I can't chamber a round easily due to fouling or other cause.....I'm done-for.

Depending on YOUR game, one may be better off with different techniques....the usual disclaimers apply.

Slim

[Don Kenna]

In 20+ years of shooting black powder cartridge rifles, I have never crimped a single bullet for use in single-shot rifles.  Having written that, there is one fairly recent exception--a Remington 1-1/2 rifle in .44/40--but that ammunition is intended primarily for use in lever action repeating rifles and revolvers.  I full-length resize after every firing, and then use a stepped expander die from Buffalo Arms.  The main portion of the expander plug is the same diameter as the cast bullet (bearing in mind there will be some springback in the brass), and the larger step in .003-inch larger than the bullet's diameter.  Both match and hunting cartridges are loaded the same way.  I do try to be reasonably careful with my hunting ammunition in the field, but some rough treatment is inevitable, and I've never had a problem.  The neck tension is such that bullets stay put.

Of course, all revolver and lever action rifle cartridges must be crimped.  I've used both roll crimp and taper crimp for those applications in years past, generally preferring the latter.  In recent years, I've switched over to Redding profile crimp dies for everything except autoloading pistol ammunition.  I quickly figured out many years  ago that crimping should be separate step in the loading process, at least for me.

[Blackpowder Burn]

I guess I'm fortunate, but I have two rifles in 45-70, one a C. Sharps '75 and one a Marlin 1895 Cowboy that will chamber the same brass without resizing.  I don't shoot long range at present, as we don't have a range in the area.  My shooting is limited to about 200 yards and consists primarily of timed offhand similar to what Montana Slim described.

I use a Lee factory crimp on all of my ammo, since it is used interchangeably in both rifles.  I also have a Marling in 38-55 that I use the Lee factory crimp die on.  Both Marlins will shoot 1.5 MOA if I do my part, and the Sharps even better.

[PJ Hardtack]

Thanks, gentlemen! It's good to know what works for other people and their rifles.

I like to keep things simple or the work overtakes the fun. A pal tried to lure me into BPCR Silhouette. Watching him weight each indexed bullet + or - 2/10's of a grain, weighing and indexing his brass, hand weighing each powder charge, etc., I soon realized that I didn't have the discipline.
I do admit that he made it pay off in competition. Sadly, then his eyes went on him and he hasn't had corrective surgery. That and his increased girth put an end to his BPCR shooting. He used to do all his shooting prone, finding that sitting with a prosthesis on one leg didn't work well for him.

[Flint]

A roll crimp, if too heavy, can bulge the case right behind the crimp, too much for some chambers.  I use a collet crimp on 44-40 for that reason, probably the only die Lee makes that is worth spending money on...

[PJ Hardtack]

Those of you who are familiar with the Lyman 457125 RN bullet .....

When seating them, do you crimp above or below the front driving band? It isn't a very wide band and mikes .458/.459 on my as-cast bullets. So do the other driving bands. Due to the tight chamber on my Shiloh 45-70 "Business Rifle", I've been sizing them .457, but I may run some through the .458 die. Why? I've read that the least bullet deformation on a bullet, the better.

In Venturino's book on BPCR's, you see pics of both the driving band above the case mouth and inside. On all originals rounds pictured, it's inside the case mouth.

When I first got a .50 percussion '63, followed by a 50-70 '74, I used as-cast, hand lubed bullets from a Lee mould that miked .515 and they all shot well. Now I'm a little more sophisticated and size them .512.

Comments?

[Blair]

PJ,

In my 45-70 Sharps that I built up, I have quite a bit of "freebore" forward of the chamber mouth.
In long range shooting, I don't crimp the case onto the bullet at all. Bullet is just a thumb press onto the powder charge.
During hunting I will seat the bullet a bit more and crimp the case to hold the bullet in place.
Hope this helps.
My best,
Blair

[PJ Hardtack]

I got my face into Mike Venturino's book and found the answer ....

He advocates seating the bullet for hunting loads deeply, but is a fan of seating target rds with the bullet seated forward as required to accommodate powder charge, free bore, etc.

I knew a guy that regularly went to a long range gong shoot in Montana. He shot an Farmingdale rilkfe with a long fee bore. His bullet - a 405 gr RNFP! He was happy with it and saw no reason to change.

[Blair]

PJ,

I used a 405 gr. bullet cast with 1 in 40, tin to lead. These dropped out of the mold at 420 grs.
The rate of twist I chose was 1 in 16. Pretty fast for the lighter 405 gr. bullet, but does well with the 420. (should do better with a heaver bullet.)
My bore is .458 groove depth and I sized my bullets at .459.
This combination works well for me out to 500 yards using a mid range MVA tang sight. (I have not tried it beyond that range, we don't have the set up).
My best,
Blair

[mehavey]

it will not chamber a round that has been roll crimped.

Coming in late to this thread but I have to ask....  Were you seating & crimping as a single step ?
(Otherwise there's no reason in the world why a roll crimp might deform a case as you describe)