Original Black Powder era Bullet Alloy

[Blackpowder Burn]

Wolf Killer, you mention that your best results with Wano were 4 shots before a complete barrel cleaning was necessary.  While Wano is not in the league of Swiss or Olde Eynsford, I suspect that bullet design and lube type/capacity was more to blame than the powder.  I can shoot 2 days of a Cody Dixon match (almost 100 rounds) with my 45-70 or 38-55 without cleaning the bore - and never miss a target.  The barrel will have fouling, but still with sharply visible rifling - more like a like coating of soot than heavy fouling.  All to do with the right bullet and lube.

[Bruce W Sims]

Wolf Killer, you mention that your best results with Wano were 4 shots before a complete barrel cleaning was necessary.  While Wano is not in the league of Swiss or Olde Eynsford, I suspect that bullet design and lube type/capacity was more to blame than the powder.  I can shoot 2 days of a Cody Dixon match (almost 100 rounds) with my 45-70 or 38-55 without cleaning the bore - and never miss a target.  The barrel will have fouling, but still with sharply visible rifling - more like a like coating of soot than heavy fouling.  All to do with the right bullet and lube.

OK.... I know that I don't have the experience that many here have but this discussion is HUGE with me as I am one
of those folks who would like to approximate the old technology if only to have an experience as close to our
fore-fathers as possible.  That said, could I ask you folks to please operationally define what you mean when you say
"as good as". Many times in a thread someone will say "such and such is not as good as..." or "is better than..."
and I don't know what your basis for comparison is. For instance....in comparing the currently available BP versus
what was available in the late 19th Century how does one go about making a determination for quality and similarity
of properties. The same goes for the comment about primers or caps.

I don't mean to put anyone on the spot and if there is a standard I don't know about all I need is a citation. It would
really help me to get more out of the discussion. BTW: I have been reading Lyman ("Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual"; 2nd Ed.) as a resource, if thats any help.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Ranch 13]

Bruce, when I say "as good as" or "better than", its from hands on experience. I suspect most everyone else is also speaking from experience.
I've done a lot of messing around with this stuff over the last couple of lustroms. I've even shot powder from the 1800's.
That second edition Lyman manual is not so hot when you get back into the cartridge section.
A better book altho dated in it's material are the ones written by Mike Venturino, the loading and shooting series.

[Crow Choker]

I'm with Ranch 13 in his comments and views on black powder then and now. I've never got into long range black powder shooting (ie Sharp/Rolling Block style rifles) or 1800 era lever action cartridges (except 21st century era 44 Colt in a 66 Winchester Uberti model). I've shot a lot of 50-100 yard shooting with a 45 caliber T/C Hawken bought back in '74 loaded with FFF black and always hit what I was aiming at (ok, a few misses) and have shot uncounted rounds in cap and ball revolvers and Colt style conversion type revolvers with no problem. Is black as good today as in 'the day'?  I think so, I'll say even better. I think we "just think" it was better 'then, than now' because it was the proverbial 'then'. Black powder manufacturering didn't 'cease and end' with the advent of smokeless powder, then someone at DuPont said "Lets start making it again for the handful of shooters wanting to shoot 1800 era firearms." The military still continued to use it, as they do now. I've read that the US Military is one of the prime users (naval guns, use in specific bombs and artillery shells) of black powder and if it wasn't for that, what shooters use wouldn't make it economical to produce. The Germans on D-Day and the Japanese at Midway can attest to the use of black powder by naval shelling. Anything produced today as far as the technogical aspect, I believe is better. Look at the quality of steel vs 'then'. The quality of many firearms as far as fit and wood in a lot of cases is not as good, but I think I'd rather defend myself or take that shot at the proverbial 30 point buck using modern made powder than totally rely on 1800 technology. Read once 'that they strived to be what we have today, but we today strive to have what they had then'-went something like that. Anyway, glad black is available to shoot as 'they' did. As long as it goes bang, sends the lead bullet downrange, and hits the intended target---I'm a happy camper. I know this post has said nothing about lead ratio's, I use as pure lead as possible for all of my cap n' ball's, black powder cartridge, and muzzle loader shooting. Ifin' I was to shoot big bore rifles 'of the back then' era, a little tin would be beneficial.
Good shooting to all!! Crow Choker 

[Blackpowder Burn]

Again, +1 what Ranch 13 says. 

Mike Venturino's books (Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West, Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West, Shooting Six Guns of the Old West, etc.) got me headed down the path in generally the right direction.  Then I tried to pay attention to what folks like Ranch have said to make further improvements - and then just burned lots of powder to better understand the needs of my particular guns.

I know folks that are much better than me use various alloys for different guns and different conditions.  For my needs, I've kept it simple and settled on just using 20:1 for all my casting.  The most important thing I've found is that you must have a bullet that carries sufficient lube to get the "lube star" on the end of the muzzle.  Given that, you can shoot almost unlimited rounds without excessive barrel fouling.  I'm sure that isn't good enough for championship level shooting at long range matches, but I maintain more than sufficient accuracy for CAS  and CAS type long range shooting.  Even after 100 rounds or more I can clean my rifles with 4 or 5 patches and a pull of the bore snake.

Swiss is the premier powder - very clean burning.  Goex Olde Eynsford is darn near equal (at least) and is a lot less expensive.  I just order Olde Eynsford by the case lot and use it for everything.

[Ranch 13]

simple and settled on just using 20:1 for all my casting

Blackpowder burn hit it pretty square on the head there. 20-1 is a good alloy to use for just about everything except some of the more slender nosed long range bullets, and according to a number of old resources from the 1880's and later indicate pretty historically correct.

[ndnchf]

Speaking of old resources. A great book for every shooter of old time cartridges is the "Complete Guide to Handloading" by Philip B. Sharpe. This book was first published in 1937. Being from the period when many readers were still familiar with black powder loading as well as smokeless, it has many references and tidbits of pertinent  information for old time cartridges. It is over 250 pages of in depth information, including development of primers, bulk powders, lubes and much more. I bought mine off ebay a few years ago and refer to it often. I highly recommend it.

[john boy]

I highly recommend it.

I do also.  Too bad though that many of the load data's have powder that is no more

[Wolf Killer]

Speaking of old resources. A great book for every shooter of old time cartridges is the "Complete Guide to Handloading" by Philip B. Sharpe. This book was first published in 1937. Being from the period when many readers were still familiar with black powder loading as well as smokeless, it has many references and tidbits of pertinent  information for old time cartridges. It is over 250 pages of in depth information, including development of primers, bulk powders, lubes and much more. I bought mine off ebay a few years ago and refer to it often. I highly recommend it.

As do I. I bought one last year, the last printing of 1953 but still all of the original data.
Read with great interest the comments on neck tension of bullet, not just crimping.
Something I could not get across to the RCBS rep on a Cowboy 44-40 sizer die I had that was cut way too deep, I even quoted Sharpe to him
They returned it saying it was in spec, had my gunsmith cut .100 off the bottom to get a correct 44-40 neck and shoulder.

Again, buy a copy if you can, the ifo in it is invaluable. True the powders are out of date, but you will really be a much more educated reloader after a few evenings of reading it.

DB

[Fox Creek Kid]

...Something I could not get across to the RCBS rep on a Cowboy 44-40 sizer die I had that was cut way too deep...

They returned it saying it was in spec, had my gunsmith cut .100 off the bottom to get a correct 44-40 neck and shoulder...

Just buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die and solve the problem once & for all. 

[Blackpowder Burn]

+1 what FCK said.  I've ended up buying the Lee Factory Crimp die for all the calibers I load.  They're cheap at about $13 each from Midway.

[Wolf Killer]

Just buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die and solve the problem once & for all. 

Gents,
you didn't read the post,
I do use a Lee Crimp die,
The problem is the RCBS die was drilled .100 too deep, giving it a too short neck, causing the lower band of the Lyman 42798 to not be inside the neck, to actually be inside the body of the cartridge,and bottleneck cartridges need to hold the bullet firmly before the crimp, I am talking about the entire neck not the case mouth.

DB

[Fox Creek Kid]

Then I would toss the RCBS die out the window.

[Wolf Killer]

Then I would toss the RCBS die out the window.

To be honest, now that I had my gunsmith trim it off by .100, it sizes perfect cases, and my ammo's accuracy has improved by at least 40% across almost all bullets

The rim to shoulder dimension is now exact to the SAAMI dimensions.

DB

[w44wcf]

DB,
I did the same thing to my RCBS die and, like yourself, have found it to work perfectly to produce a factory length neck.

Regarding the original bullet alloys as used by the factory, the early Winchester Handbooks as found on the link that Don mentioned  are the most informative.  I would suggest this one.
http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=2556

The bullet alloy is illustrated as either "pure lead" (.44 W.C.F.) or "Composed of 1 part tin to 16 parts lead" (.45-70).   Depending on the cartridge, the lead / tin ratios go anywhere from 1/14 to 1/40.

w44wcf

[Dakota Widowmaker]

i seem to recall that nearly all civil war pistol and rifle balls were swagged after a period and were produced in much higher quantity and better quality than teenagers casting them with 9- cavity molds by hand.

Trying to recall where I read this, but, its been in the back of my mind for a while.

Swagged bullets are almost always pure lead to reduce wear/tear on the machines.

I believe the cast buffalo bullets were mostly 30:1 or 20:1 based on testing that was done by sames at the FBI.