Original Black Powder era Bullet Alloy

[Wolf Killer]

Hello gent,
I have been trying to find information on bullet alloys used if any during the black powder cartridge era, 1866- to 1900
Did ammo makers use an allow of lead to tin or other metal during this era for pistol and rifle cartridges that were lubed with grease and not paper patched?

I have read the statements in many Sharps catalogs mentioning the superiority of Sharps special bullet alloy for reloading Sharps lubed cartridges, and I read somewhere that Sharps special secret alloy for grease groove bullets was really 1 in 16 tin to lead
I would think that rifle bullets for the Winchester 1876 rifle and 45-70 an other large rifle rounds would go a little harder than pure lead as the velocities are getting up there with big loads of BP and velocities reaching 1300 FPS with big sharps rounds with grease groove bullets

I am interested in loading up original as possible ammunition for both personal and academic reasons
I know that original style primers and brass are a long gone product, but still wish to replicate original ammo.

Any help would be helpful,

Thanks,
Wolf Killer

Donald Bowman

[Fox Creek Kid]

You know as much as we do from reading the labels on old boxes. That is all the factory info there is. However, using a 1 in 16 alloy is for long range BPCR, i.e., past 200 yds. and for single shots.

[Wolf Killer]

Thanks for the reply,
I know box labels, I  have searched the net for every vintage box I could find, I was hoping for collectors that have taken the plunge to disassemble these old cartridges and test the hardness of the bullets to determine a BHN for them,
or those with knowledge of late 19th century cartridges and components, or any references to bullet alloy for sale in old gun catalogs or reloading and casting instruction from that era.
.
Thanks

DB

[Kent Shootwell]

From a 1883 "Hardware Catalog"
40/70 370 grain pp 1-20
42 Russian 370 grain pp pure lead
44/77 470 grain pp 1-15
44/90 520 grain pp 1-14 for Sharps Creedmoore
45 Colt 255 grain gg 1-20
45/70 405 grain gg 1-16
50/90 Sharps 473 pp 1-20
That's a sampling of what they offered. The bullets were, pp = paper patched and gg = grease grooved.

[Ranch 13]

I would think that rifle bullets for the Winchester 1876 rifle and 45-70 an other large rifle rounds would go a little harder than pure lead as the velocities are getting up there with big loads of BP and velocities reaching 1300 FPS with big sharps rounds with grease groove bullets

the 1878 Winchester catalog lists the alloy for those two cartridges specifically at 16-1. 44 wcf is listed with pure lead and 45 Colts and Smith and Wesson both at 20-1. 44 Russian and 44 colt at 14-1.

[ndnchf]

The 1890s era Ideal catalog lists the factory bullet alloys for many period cartridges.

[Wolf Killer]

Gentlemen,
I thank you, for your input, this is some great starter info. I am in awe of the 44 WCF listed as pure lead, as I shoot a lot of 44-40  in rifle and pistol and it is in my humble opinion a powerful round, with black powder velocities reaching and passing 1100 FPS in a rifle. I use a 1 in 10 mix or 1-16 for some of my BP rounds and have had very god accuracy and no barrel leading

Last year I shot some 429421 cast bullets from Western bullet in my 44 magnum at a 1100 FPs load they were woefully inaccurate and had streaks of lead down the barrel after 12 rounds.
I only later bought a hardness tester and checked the hardness at 14 BHN. Western doesn't list it's hardness, but an after the fact email said all bullets are cast at 12 to 15 BHN
I have shot a lot of pure lead round nose 38 special from a Remington sale and no lead at all in any of my 38 special  51 Navy conversions barrels

So much to learn, All the men who knew black powder when it was the only powder were all dead before it became popular again. All that knowledge gone with little to nothing written down. Don't even start me on BP shotgun loads,
Finding accurate load versus shot is just a trial and error thing, as I have not seen any loading table for shotshells.

Thanks,

DB

[Wolf Killer]

The 1890s era Ideal catalog lists the factory bullet alloys for many period cartridges.

Great, where do I find one of those at?

DB

[Ranch 13]

http://www.cornellpubs.com/index.php

[ndnchf]

Great, where do I find one of those at?

DB

It is reprinted in the Lyman Ideal handbook #39. They show up regularly on ebay. If you are interested in a specific round I can look it up.

[Coffinmaker]

My take doesn't just apply to this OP's question, but to ALL of those who wish to bathe in the glory of those halcyon days of yesteryear.
OK, I'm being a snob.  But, here it is:
the first problem we face is the cartridge cases themselves.  For the most part, those old cartridges were some form of "balloon" head
case.  they accepted a good deal more propellant than current solid head cases. 
Then there is the case material.  Prior to the 44-40, most straight wall cases were pretty close to pure copper.  the prime example is the
.44 Henry Flat.  A very soft case that obtruded very well in the chamber.  Rim Fire, the priming compound was the entire bottom of the case, and there was no primer pocket intruding into the space for propellant.  Goes on and on that way.
A modern "big bore" simply won't hold the amount of powder the ancient cases would.
Bullet alloy today isn't far removed from what the bullet makers of yesteryear were making.  It's a pretty simple item to manufacture.  Don't forget, those guys in the "out beyond" who were case ing their own ammunition, probably couldn't get enough temperature to melt tin.  Casting straight lead.
then we hit the other Bugaboo.  The propellent itself.  Most of the commercially available Black Powder today simply isn't as good as the stuff used by our forefathers.  Go Figure.  You'd think, with todays chemistry and manufacturing technique, we could easily duplicate the
powder from that era.  Not generally.  There are a couple that are as good, but not many.

My own personal search for authenticity centered around the Henry Rifle and companion Pistol, the Open Top.  Obviously, there aren't many sources for 44 Henry Flat rim fire, copper cases for the loader/re-loader.  So we have to substitute.  I personally started modifying reproduction Henry rifles to work with shorter cases.  Had to go to cases the same dimensions as 45 ACP in the 45 rifles.  If one were able to snap up one of the few .44 Special Henry Rifles, a mod to allow .44 Russian cases is/was easy peasy.  Also was able to modify a repro
1866 to run .44 Russian.  Those efforts got me "close."

Getting "close" in the traditional Big Bore Rifles is a bit easier, but duplication of those old cartridges is problematic.  The cases aren't out there and readily available.  So, we have to settle for getting "close." 

Now, if we could switch the emphasis over to Gatling Guns and their ammunition, I'm your Huckleberry.  Your garden variety Gatling could, would, does gobble up anything you can feed it.  At it's rate of fire and weight of shot, Minute of Mule is just fine.  The only real drawback
is being in a position to afford to feed the darn thing

Coffinmaker

[Ranch 13]

Today's powder is every bit as good if not better than the stuff way back when.
As to the case capacity, the amount of powder difference (if any) is so small as to be in consequential.
Today's brass is much better and will last a lot longer than what was available back in the day.

[Wolf Killer]

Today's powder is every bit as good if not better than the stuff way back when.
As to the case capacity, the amount of powder difference (if any) is so small as to be in consequential.
Today's brass is much better and will last a lot longer than what was available back in the day.

No offense, but that's a bold statement without hermetically sealed samples of powders from 1850 to 1890 to do a comparison with.
Black Powder back then was it, no other firearm propellant was available, and I am sure there was a consumer war for sales as it is now along with a sliding scale of quality and performance amongst brands, and buyer loyalty due to years of use by sport, competition and defense shooters as it is today.
I am in the camp that trade secrets and formulas of the making of quality black powder along with the factories and the tooling  that used to make high quality BP 150 years ago are no more, and resurgence of BP use in the last 30 years, and the low sales of it compared to smokeless powder is not the highest incentive to invest the millions needed make the best performing powder.

DB

[Ranch 13]

Those old recipe's are alive and well, and used by the 3 main powder manufacturers.

[Blackpowder Burn]

+1 what Ranch 13 said.

You'll find Swiss and Goex Olde Eynsford as good as you could ask for.  I've shot everything from 38WCF, 44WCF, 45 Colt, 45 ACP (yes, in a 1911), 38-55, 40-65, 45-70 and 50-70 all cast of 20:1 alloy in a wide variety of revolvers, lever and single shot rifles with zero leading problems.  It is only required that you have a bullet design that is properly sized to the bore and carries sufficient lube to keep the entire length of the bore "wet".

[Wolf Killer]

My take doesn't just apply to this OP's question, but to ALL of those who wish to bathe in the glory of those halcyon days of yesteryear.
OK, I'm being a snob.  But, here it is:
the first problem we face is the cartridge cases themselves.  For the most part, those old cartridges were some form of "balloon" head
case.  they accepted a good deal more propellant than current solid head cases. 
Then there is the case material.  Prior to the 44-40, most straight wall cases were pretty close to pure copper.  the prime example is the
.44 Henry Flat.  A very soft case that obtruded very well in the chamber.  Rim Fire, the priming compound was the entire bottom of the case, and there was no primer pocket intruding into the space for propellant.  Goes on and on that way.
A modern "big bore" simply won't hold the amount of powder the ancient cases would.
Bullet alloy today isn't far removed from what the bullet makers of yesteryear were making.  It's a pretty simple item to manufacture.  Don't forget, those guys in the "out beyond" who were case ing their own ammunition, probably couldn't get enough temperature to melt tin.  Casting straight lead.
then we hit the other Bugaboo.  The propellent itself.  Most of the commercially available Black Powder today simply isn't as good as the stuff used by our forefathers.  Go Figure.  You'd think, with todays chemistry and manufacturing technique, we could easily duplicate the
powder from that era.  Not generally.  There are a couple that are as good, but not many.

My own personal search for authenticity centered around the Henry Rifle and companion Pistol, the Open Top.  Obviously, there aren't many sources for 44 Henry Flat rim fire, copper cases for the loader/re-loader.  So we have to substitute.  I personally started modifying reproduction Henry rifles to work with shorter cases.  Had to go to cases the same dimensions as 45 ACP in the 45 rifles.  If one were able to snap up one of the few .44 Special Henry Rifles, a mod to allow .44 Russian cases is/was easy peasy.  Also was able to modify a repro
1866 to run .44 Russian.  Those efforts got me "close."

Getting "close" in the traditional Big Bore Rifles is a bit easier, but duplication of those old cartridges is problematic.  The cases aren't out there and readily available.  So, we have to settle for getting "close." 


Coffinmaker

Coffinmakers reply is just what I was getting at in my original post.
We have two parallel paths here, the old and the new in trying to get to the end results of the black powder loading.
We get those paths pretty close in some place and there are some wide divisions. We also get close enough to wave at the bearded men in tattered shirts and guns with iron barrels and cartridges made of copper but the wave is all we have.
I remember reading Elmer keith's old article on the big 50 Sharps, and the adventure he went through to find a load and powder to work correctly, and he had some still living buffalo hunters available to brain pick. One line from his article that did stand out was the lack of primers similar to the old days to fire off these bigs loads of black powder.

Another thought that just came to me is we are just talking about the USA product, I wonder about the British loaded guns especially the gigantic 8 and 4 bore guns and their powders and primer as well as bullet alloy and how they performed while riding in a Howdah in the blazing Idja and African heat.


Thanks for all the input as this really helps me in the anachronistic lifestyle of a 65 year old retiree. I want to thank each one of you for your input and help, in my effort to replicate an old reality.
I even purchased a Uberti Henry a 1866 and two open top colts in 44 special to get as close to the early days of cartridge shooting as I can. I can fire 44 Special, Russians and 44 Colts, in the pistols and am tying to figure a way for my 66 or my Henry to fire the shorter round

Thanks,
Wolf killer,

Donald Bowman

[Wolf Killer]

Those old recipe's are alive and well, and used by the 3 main powder manufacturers.

My first black powder purchase was from Grafs, as the special was 25 pounds of 2F Wano  for $200.00
I think my best was 4 shots in my 45 sharps before a complete washout of the barrel was needed, and the patch came out looking like I had struck oil.

I am still using it for Shotgun and some pistol loads in a stainless  44 just to burn it up
Not exactly as good as the old stuff.

DB

[Ranch 13]

My first blackpowder purchase goes back 40 someodd years..
But as to the Grafs powder I've found it to be pretty decent stuff, doesn't foul as hard in hot dry weather as Swiss, and is a bit "cleaner" than Goex. It doesn't like compression. 65 grs of the 2f under a postel cast from 20-1 will keep 1000 yd gongs lit up with nothing more than a blowtube, provided the lube is a good lube.
The primer deal is interesting. I'ld suspect Elmer's big problem was finding berdan primers for those cases.
The whole process of duplexing started in the early days of smokeless powder , when they discovered that the primers would not reliably ignite the smokeless, they started dropping a small charge of black under the smokeless..Seems there are many things some have completely backwards nowdays..
Brass cases are another interesting thing. Perry wrote in his Observations of Modern Shooting circa 1880, that the serious shooter never used cases that had been fired to shoot in a match or in the field for hunting, as after the first firing the cases were prone to separation.
Hudson wrote in the early 1900's they solved the problems with smokeless powder destroying a fired case over night by changing the alloy of the brass and copper. He also said they finally figured out how to make the 30 krag shoot at long range by going back and scaling down the bullet design to match the ones that had been so successful at long range in the 44 and 45 caliber creedmoor guns.

[Wolf Killer]

id they finally figured out how to make the 30 krag shoot at long range by going back and scaling down the bullet design to match the ones that had been so successful at long range in the 44 and 45 caliber creedmoor guns.

Funny you should mention that, I shoot 95 winchester in 30-40 krag and a Browning single shot in same.
The best performance is from the old lyman 220 grain #311284 I was loading both for it and my 45-110 a few weeks ago and noticed how similar the bullets were, kind of looked like the Krag bullet got shrunk in the wash.

I am more fascinated and interested in loading a shooting 100 plus year old cartridges than any 338 Lapau or Blackout or anything created in the last 60 years, it seems to me that every 30 caliber round out there is a fruitless endeavor to improve on the 30-30

DB

[ndnchf]

Wolf Killer - I couldn't agree more. I love the challenge and fun of working with the odd and unusual, old and long obsolete cartridges. Here's one I'm working with now in an old rolling block, shown next to a .22 short for comparison.

.