Uberti 'Navy' jamming

Sporting Lad · June 26, 2015, 11:42:26 PM

I have a Uberti 'Colt Navy' in .38 ("1871")with a problem. I bought this revolver new in April of '15, and the first 100 rounds went fine.
Recently it's been "jamming" after 3 or 4 rounds. After a round is fired the hammer will not raise >1/8" and the cylinder will not revolve
at all.
I can unjam it by slamming the butt down onto the bench, "WHAM!" only to have it jam again on the next, or the next, round.

The gun will also jam with chambers full of empty shells. When I cycle the action with the muzzle pointed down it works fine;
when I do the same with the muzzle pointed at the sky...it jams again. In that case I think the spent shell casings are falling backwards and getting hung up thus jamming the cylinder(?).
With the cylinder removed, the hammer/trigger work just fine. There are no apparent signs of wear.
I'm up in Canada, so shipping the gun down south for repairs in problematic, but hopefully, not necessary.

Help--this Cowboy is out of Action!!

Thumb Buster · June 27, 2015, 12:22:34 PM

Sounds like an issue with the hand (some call it the pawl). It pivots off the hammer and rides up in a channel being pressed forward either by an 'S' shaped leaf spring ( anchor in the hand itself) or a coil spring/follower/plunger. Any number of things can be at fault including pieces of a busted cap getting in the way. Have you done a complete disassembly yet? The leaf springs are notorious for busting which causes the hand to fall away from the cylinder ratchet when the muzzle is up and advances just fine when the muzzle is down (gravity). I had an original 1851 that did the same thing and it was the busted hand spring jamming everything up. Those old hand springs used to be changeable as they were a frail part with frequent failure but the new ones are staked into the hand. Just a thought on my part. If this is the problem some will suggest a new hand and spring assembly or retrofitting a spring/follower/plunger. For me, myself and I the hand and spring is favored a I usually drill out the staked handspring and then fashion my own leaf springs so that they're replaceable and a new hand then isn't needed and neither is the fitting of a new hand. Again, this is just my thinkin'. Good luck with it.

Sporting Lad · June 27, 2015, 01:27:02 PM

Hey, Buster--
thx for the prompt reply.
That seems like a good theory. I just checked on that 'hand'--it appears to be doing what it's supposed to be doing;
it's under spring compression when I press on it.

I now think the jamming is down to a WEDGE issue.
When I cycle with the wedge removed, it's all good.
Insert the wedge (one lite tap w/ rubber mallet) it's still OK.
Two more taps and it's starting to jam. Three taps and it jams solid.
So--is the wedge tapping a matter of trial and error?
How loose is too loose??
ps-- Operation (dry firing) is the same--doesn't matter if chambers have the shells in
them or not (It's nothing to do w/ the spent shell casings).

I seem to have found a sweet spot: Two lite taps and the wedge is protruding 1/8" on the right,
and is still out 5/16" on the left.
Nothing's wiggling or rattling; it's cycling fine now.

If the wedge stays in that position my troubles might be over. For future re-assemblies I'll measure
how far the wedge gets driven in.
Does that sound right?.
I guess I won't know until I try and shoot it.
I'll try shooting this bad girl next week and see if the barrel don't just blow off!

Coffinmaker · June 27, 2015, 02:52:06 PM

Sporting Lad,
Why heck, It's Saturday and I don't work on Saturdays ..... NO, wait, I don't work at all (mostly), I'm retired. But let me throw my nickel into the hat.
First, Open Top "type" guns from Uberti are "KITS." Well packaged, pre-assembled Kits. They are NOT finished. In 99% of the guns, the fit of the Barrel to the Arbor is ....... well, it isn't. The hole in the barrel lug is drilled to deep, or the Arbor is too short. Depends on how you want to describe it. Before your gun will run correctly, you need to fix that. You do have me confused (it's easy to do) with your description of the gun being a "Colt Navy" (1871). It's either an 1851 conversion or it's an 1871/72 Open Top with Navy grips.
Anyway, there is very good tutorial on "The Open Range" by one of our partners in crime, Larsen E. Pettifogger. Go read the article. Until you fix the barrel to arbor fit, overtime you take the gun apart and put it back together, you have a different gun. UNTILL you read Pettifoggers stuff (most excellent stuff), drop by your local hardware and pick up some 5mm Stainless split washers. drop one down the barrel hole and then shove the arbor in and fit the wedge. Currently, when you push the wedge home, the barrel jams against the cylinder face (look for the scratches). With the washer in there, it will register pretty near correct and the same every time. Even if you whack the wedge.

Coffinmaker

Thumb Buster · June 27, 2015, 04:07:24 PM

What Coffinmaker said. I hadn't even thought of that.

Had I been more attentive I'd have seen the word 'Uberti'. Sorry about that. A friend of mine has a Uberti and sure enough the arbor was too danged short causing troubles. Pettifogger's article that Coffinmaker refers to is extremely helpful.

45 Dragoon · June 27, 2015, 07:06:59 PM

I think the problem is a step (from machining) on the face of the recoil shield. I agree with CM about the arbor fix and the normal opentop probs. but, the '72 OT's seem to have this problem.
A fired case sitting back against the shield will hit this machined step and halt everything.
You just need to break (round, smooth) the edges of all surfaces the the case heads may contact.

A loose wedge will give enough room to allow it to run OK, tighten it up and it'll stop everything. Likewise, bumping the Handel will shove the cases/case back into the chamber and free it up.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Crow Choker · June 27, 2015, 10:04:54 PM

I had a similar problem with my Open Top Army in that after firing several rounds I couldn't thumb the hammer back and couldn't turn the cylinder unless assisted with my free hand. Found a small burr on the recoil shield that the fired cases were rubbing on. Stoned the burr-nor further problems. I attempted to insert a quote from another post that was posted a while back with similar problems and my post on my Open Top. No dice, can't figure how to do it. You can find it on page 4 of this section (Storm) titled "One of my 1860 Richards-Masons has a hitch" originally posted by Mean Bob Mean, the last post of the thread was posted 11/18/13 by Rifle. Around half way down on the page. Crow Choker

Coffinmaker · June 28, 2015, 03:19:42 PM

Ah POOP!! First thing to go is the memory

Actualy, no it's not but this is a family forum

I forgot about that little "shelf" Uberti puts on the recoil shield to establish head space (I think it's to establish head space). Often times on the 71/72 Open Top there is very little if any bevel there to ease the cases around. The poor (nonexistent) Barrel/Arbor fit makes it worse with a snug wedge. Polish/stone a nice tasty little bevel there.
There is also another place to look that is often overlooked on the Open Top. The top edges of the loading gate. Often, the gate does not fit correctly in the frame and can move out a tiny bit, into the path of the case rim. The edge is sharp and just stops the case and rotation.
Breaking the edges with a tiny bevel allows the case to push the gate back into place and slide on by.

Coffinmaker

PS: Hi Mike!!

45 Dragoon · June 28, 2015, 06:28:40 PM

Lol
Hey Mike

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Bdr Bob · June 29, 2015, 04:30:37 PM

Hello Sporting Lad,

I'm in the Great White North also. One day we'll get summer...
Sounds like a problem I had. The Richards-Masons guns don't have the problem. It is the 1871-72 Open Top Early (Navy grip), Open Top Late (Army grip), and the Cimarron Man With No Name 1851, that have the problem.
Every one I have has done it to me.
Take the gun apart. Look where the loading gate is attached to the frame. There is a screw that faces towards the muzzle, therefore facing the rear of the cylinder that could be the problem. Soft Italian screws will work themselves loose, allowing the loading gate to move forward, jamming the gun.
Remove screw, apply non-permanent Loctite, then re-install.
Hopefully that should cure the problem.

Let us know!!

Sporting Lad · June 30, 2015, 02:30:00 AM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on June 27, 2015, 02:52:06 PM
Sporting Lad,
Why heck, It's Saturday and I don't work on Saturdays ..... NO, wait, I don't work at all (mostly), I'm retired. But let me throw my nickel into the hat.
First, Open Top "type" guns from Uberti are "KITS." Well packaged, pre-assembled Kits. They are NOT finished. In 99% of the guns, the fit of the Barrel to the Arbor is ....... well, it isn't. The hole in the barrel lug is drilled to deep, or the Arbor is too short. Depends on how you want to describe it. Before your gun will run correctly, you need to fix that. You do have me confused (it's easy to do) with your description of the gun being a "Colt Navy" (1871). It's either an 1851 conversion or it's an 1871/72 Open Top with Navy grips.
Anyway, there is very good tutorial on "The Open Range" by one of our partners in crime, Larsen E. Pettifogger. Go read the article. Until you fix the barrel to arbor fit, overtime you take the gun apart and put it back together, you have a different gun. UNTILL you read Pettifoggers stuff (most excellent stuff), drop by your local hardware and pick up some 5mm Stainless split washers. drop one down the barrel hole and then shove the arbor in and fit the wedge. Currently, when you push the wedge home, the barrel jams against the cylinder face (look for the scratches). With the washer in there, it will register pretty near correct and the same every time. Even if you whack the wedge.

Coffinmaker

The distributor I ordered the gun from calls it an "1871 Cimarron Richard's Mason (1851 Navy) .38 Special 7.5". It's got the octagonal barrel, and I opted for the "distressed" finish. IIRC I mentioned earlier that it was all tickity boo for about 100 rounds before the jamming. My only issue up til then was the awkward method of unloading the empties since the .45 ejector rod dosen't align with the .38 chambers.

Coffeemaker, I read Pettifogger's thread. Wow, lots of good info there.
I just measured my arbor and the hole: I don't think one washer's gonna do it-- the arbor is ~26mm long, and the hole is 30mm deep.
My washer is just under 1mm thick. That means I'd need 4 or 5 washers down the hole. Could that be possible?
Wait, this one's a flat washer--let me go find a few of the split washers....

I also noticed that "shelf" on the recoil shield, and the distinct lack of a bevel, but IDK how to round that w/o making a mess of the two surfaces (the loading gate joint is smooth).

Thanks to all who contributed the possible fixes; I'm considering them all.
BTW-- Having recently "remanufactured" a Norinco M-14, I'm well acquainted with "kit guns" and the commitment required to get them to work properly.

Ah, but it's all worth it in the end, eh? $:-\$
I just wish they'd all shoot as well as my SS New Vaquero....

Happy trails!
SL

45 Dragoon · June 30, 2015, 07:04:02 AM

S.Lad,
They should and be lighter and smoother to boot!

As far as 1,2 or 10 washers, whatever it takes. I don't use split washers (don't want a spring, I want a solid base). S.A.s have few parts but getting them to work together is a bit of a chore/dance.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Sporting Lad · June 30, 2015, 12:47:36 PM

Quote from: 45 Dragoon on June 30, 2015, 07:04:02 AM
S.Lad,

As far as 1,2 or 10 washers, whatever it takes. I don't use split washers (don't want a spring, I want a solid base). S.A.s have few parts but getting them to work together is a bit of a chore/dance.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

And those were going to be my very next Qs!
a) Free rein on the # if washers required, and
b) I wondered about this last night whilst digging thru my cache of washers:
Might not spring(y) washers result in inconsistent movement when the gun recoils?
Wouldn't flat washers be preferred? Won't a stack of flat washers make a more
solid base for the arbor to rest upon?
I'm about to attempt that mod now (stand by...).

Sporting Lad · June 30, 2015, 01:14:50 PM

OK, I just dropped two of these SS flat washers into the hole.
three washers was too much--the wedge would not go in at all.
Two brought it back ~2mm and that seems just right.
I thwacked the wedge w/ the rubber side of my mallet as hard
as three taps would've done, now dry firing works with
no jams.

Is it time for some live firing?

45 Dragoon · June 30, 2015, 01:46:01 PM

There ya go!!
If you got time and care about tolerances - if two (washers) is a smig too much, dress the end of the arbor until you get a .002-.003 barrel/cylinder clearance (gun in just fired condition - hammer down, cylinder locked and pulling cylinder back while measuring). You'll be able to shoot longer with no fowling and have a cleaner revolver when done. (You might even feel a little more recoil)
When yer happy, a little JB Weld will keep them (washers) in place.
Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com