A Quandary for Speculation and Contemplation .....

[Coffinmaker]

So, here is the observation(s)
I play CAS as a Gunfighter.  I primarily shoot Snubbies.  3 inch barrels.  All .44s, all with Army Grips.
In my Cap Guns, the load for CAS is 20Gr 3F APP -/+, Round Ball.l  Recoil is mild and cleanup of the cylinder face/Breach face after every stage.  Very accurate and Capitol FUN.

Alternately, I have two pair of Snubbies, with R&D cartridge conversion cylinders.  the load for CAS is a Cowboy 45 Special case, 130Gr Hollow Base Wadcutter, 16Gr 3f APP +/-, Federal Primer.  Recoil is heavier and sharper then the Cap Gun and there is about half the fouling to clean up after each stage.  Very Accurate and again, Capitol FUN!

The question:  With a lighter projectile, and less powder, why does the cartridge set up recoil harder than the Cap Gun??  I do have a theory, but I'd like to hear yours 

Coffinmaker

[Lefty Dude]

And what if you shoot round ball in both, Cartridge & Cap & ball ? Also same powder charge ?

You are not comparing apples to apples.

[pony express]

My best guess would be that the hollow base bullet seals the bore better than the bound ball, perhaps raising the pressures a bit. Have you ever chronographed the 2 loads?

[45 Dragoon]

Case crimp / sealed primer. Much more efficient.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[Coffinmaker]

Lefty,

Yep.  Have shot Round Ball in the cartridges as well.  Recoil increase there too.  By the way, for those looking for a little milder load than big 'ol "bullets, 200 - 250Gr, the Round Ball works just super.  Since they are all Pietta, I have used .451 Round Ball and .454 Round ball.
The .454 Round Ball gives a little better crimp.  Recoil is still quite mild.  Just a little heavier and sharper than with my Cap Guns.

Way back in the way back, Round Ball in cartridges were called "gallery Loads."

Coffinmaker

Common denominator is APP for the propellant.  Never bothered with the Chrono.  the loads make it to the target and go CLANG 

[rdstrain49]

Look to the crimp.

[rickk]

Not sure, but throwing out something to consider. Are the conversion cylinders parallel to the bore? I know that on some variations they angle slightly outward. I don't know if that might affect the direction of the recoil forces.

Rick

[hellgate]

Is the APP compressed? I have found that APP has a lot more recoil (pressure) if compressed a bit too much compared to BP. When you say 20gr APP, is that by WEIGHT or VOLUME? A 20gr volume equivalent ought to have the same "umph" as BP but the 20gr weight may well be a greater volume of powder than 20gr volume of BP.

[Lefty Dude]

When loading APP the suggested method of compression is to seat the Bullet in the cartridge so it just kisses the powder. Much compression is not recommended.

In a C&B Revolver when using APP I compress the ball on the APP.

[Coffinmaker]

Well guys, here's the scoop.
The answer is a combination "cause and effect"
In a Cap Gun, the Ball is just seated on top of the propellant with a friction fit.  The flame travel of the cap is shorter so ignition is progressive.  At the same time, as soon as the pressure in the chamber starts to rise, the Ball starts to move, making the combustion chamber larger and larger.  There is no great "spike" in pressure and as the combustion chamber expands (down the barrel) the efficiency of the combustion process degrades.  Leaves lots of residue.  Cap Guns aren't real efficient.

The cartridge on the other hand, is a closed container.  The primer is enclosed and the flame travel is completely thru the powered charge in the first nano second, so there is more powder burning almost immediately.  The movement of the projectile is delayed by the crimp which causes a much more rapid rise in pressure.  Combustion is mostly complete before the projectile leaves the chamber.  With the more efficient combustion, there is much less residue.  The cartridge is much more efficient.

This result was achieved and determined using APP, a Sub propellant.  Haven't checked the results with BP yet.  It is however, interesting.
The test needs to be run again with BP.  Needs to be done with the same gun ....... i.e. ....... A percussion gun that is then shot with a Howell type cylinder and cartridges.  Oh, Cowboy 45 Special cartridges.  Was a fun exercise.

Coffinmaker

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Not being a physicist it might be Newton's second or third laws at work.
More velocity will give more recoil or a heavier bullet will give more recoil.
Or it might be something else. What is the difference, if any, in the weight of the guns in each configuration?
Again a heavier gun will have less perceived recoil.
At least those are my thoughts
Bunk

[Bruce W Sims]

Well guys, here's the scoop.
The answer is a combination "cause and effect"
In a Cap Gun, the Ball is just seated on top of the propellant with a friction fit.  The flame travel of the cap is shorter so ignition is progressive.  At the same time, as soon as the pressure in the chamber starts to rise, the Ball starts to move, making the combustion chamber larger and larger.  There is no great "spike" in pressure and as the combustion chamber expands (down the barrel) the efficiency of the combustion process degrades.  Leaves lots of residue.  Cap Guns aren't real efficient.

The cartridge on the other hand, is a closed container.  The primer is enclosed and the flame travel is completely thru the powered charge in the first nano second, so there is more powder burning almost immediately.  The movement of the projectile is delayed by the crimp which causes a much more rapid rise in pressure.  Combustion is mostly complete before the projectile leaves the chamber.  With the more efficient combustion, there is much less residue.  The cartridge is much more efficient.

This result was achieved and determined using APP, a Sub propellant.  Haven't checked the results with BP yet.  It is however, interesting.
The test needs to be run again with BP.  Needs to be done with the same gun ....... i.e. ....... A percussion gun that is then shot with a Howell type cylinder and cartridges.  Oh, Cowboy 45 Special cartridges.  Was a fun exercise.

Coffinmaker

Thanks, C:  What you are describing is something like what I wanted to investigate in my BP Learning Curve.

My theory is that the cartridge indeed increased convenience for the Military. I have wondered often if a
"two component" charge might have only been slightly more inconvenient but would have produced better performance.

What I mean is that a cartridge could be loaded sans the ball. A choice of ball or conical would be loaded home from the front as with any C&P pistol. Essentially you would be loading a cartridge "blank" from the back and choice of projectile from the front. Of course
this would all be superannuated by later technology, but given the limits of 19th Century ACW technology might this
have given the Best of both Worlds or the Worst?  Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Fox Creek Kid]

Case crimp / sealed primer. Much more efficient.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

We have a winner.

[Rusty Mustang]

I would also tend to think there is another outlet for escaping gases after ignition- ie the nipple.  So the recoil would be less since gases are blowing out of both ends of a C&B as opposed to just the front in a cartridge gun.

Maybe?

JK

[Coffinmaker]

Hey Bunk,
Good thoughts.  The gun(s) in question are exactly the same gun.  Just swap out the Cap cylinder for a Cartridge cylinder.  The specific weight of the guns is within maybe an ounce.

Rusty,
Yes, there is a slight loss of gas thru the nipple, but much to little to make a difference.  It's all in my previous answer.  The cartridge is much more efficient than a percussion cylinder.  Physics apply to both cylinders, but the "complete" explanation would probably exceed the available band width for this Board   Besides, other than an interesting discussion, Who Cares??  Both are shooting smoky stuff and are fun to play with.  Although, However, Besides, Cap Guns are MORE FUN.  Takes a genuine understanding of the Black Arts, Spells and Potions and a personal relationship with a Dragon to successfully run Cap Guns.  Abra Kadabra alle KAZOT!!

Coffinmaker

[Rusty Mustang]

I'll drink to that.  After shootin', of course.  Not before.

RM

[john boy]

CM, plug the numbers in for both handguns and see what you get ... http://handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

[Coffinmaker]

John Boy,
That would be real fun to do.  The only problem for me is I don't use a Chrono.  I have no idea what the actual velocity of my loads are.
With some loads I have used, I'm afforded the opportunity to haul butt down to the target and move it in front of the speeding bullet.
With other loads, not so much.
I have found though, perceived or "felt" recoil is dependent on the weight of the gun.  Heavier is better.  The weight of the pay load.  Lighter is better.  The velocity of the pay load.  The size and shape of the grip set.  And whether or not the trigger guard bangs the Bee Jesus out of yer knuckle.
I'll never understand the clowns who bring their significant other or kid to a CAS event, put em behind a light double that doesn't fit, with "target" ammunition or a small frame, light revolver with SAAMI MAX .38s and then wonder why they won't come back.
I also find it somewhat humorous when the handgun goes off and sounds like a camel coughing and the bullet dribbles out the bore and lands about 8 feet out.  Not that THAT has EVER happened to ME (giggling quietly).  Also funny when the shotgun sounds like a cat sneezing and shot charge lands about that same 6 or 8 feet out.  I have NEVER had that happen either (fingers crossed behind back).
God by gunz er FUN!!

Coffinmaker

[Lefty Dude]

So CM, what you are saying is that you have used the ultimate "Gamer" cartridge. A 38 short colt, with the primer pocket drilled out to 209 Shotgun, then a 90 gr. 380 bullet seated with no powder.

[Coffinmaker]

WHAT?  Lefty, are you sayn there is suppose to be POWDER in there!!!  D'you know how dangerous that could be!!  REAL ........
Gun Powder.  I'd never a thunkit.

I may actually try that one day 

Coffinmaker