1861 Navy problem

[Wally Montana]

Hi all!

A year or two ago I picked up an 1861 Navy at a local gun show.  Beautiful gun and looked like it had never been fired.

Took it out yesterday and loaded it up with 18 grains of Cleanshot (now app) round balls and capped it with remington #10 caps.
pulled back the hammer pulled the trigger and Nothing happened.  Hammer came down but cap did not ignite.  same with all cylinders except one which fired ok.  tried putting a different cap on one of the cylinders and still no bang.  looked at the cap and it did not look like the hammer even touched it.

Long story short being fairly new at this cap and ball stuff I pulled the cylinder out, pulled off the nipples and tried to get powder out of cylinder (probably a stupid thing to do but at the time it seemed rational).  Now I have a cylinder with four balls (and undoubtably a bit of powder) still in it.  What should I do next?  Any help will be appreciated as I kind of like shooting these old guns.  A new Pietta 1851 worked flawlessly all afternoon with same powder, caps and balls. 

Thanks in advance.

Wally Montana

[sail32]

Remove the cylinder,
Wet the powder,
Remove the nipples,
Go to the nearest hobby shop and buy a brass rod that will just fit through the nipple hole.
Wet the powder again,
Keeping the rod short, gently tap out the ball on a flat piece of wood with a "V" in it for the ball to drop out through.

[Wally Montana]

Thanks for the advice.  Heading to town later this morning and will look for the brass rod.

Thanks again.  I appreciate your help.

Wally Montana

[Fingers McGee]

Get a drywall screw and screw it into the roundball  then pull the ball out.  They are only held in by a little friction.you don't have to wet the powder and you don't need a piece of brass to push the ball out. 

Check to see if the hammer is hitting the frame.  More than likely there is a burr where the arbor and staking pin come through the frame and is preventing the hammer from going forward far enough to pop the caps.  File the burr down and you should have no more problems.

[Wally Montana]

Thanks for the response regarding the screw.  I can try that without heading to town.

I will definitely check for the burring.  Darn nice looking gun and it would be shame not to be able to fire it.

Wally Montana

[Lefty Dude]

What Fingers said is how I do it also. A very simple procedure.

[Coffinmaker]

If you haven't experienced a "dry Hole," just be patient.  You will.  The dry wall screw works wonders.  A screw jag is standard equipment for front stuffer rifle shooters.
Also, Check the sides of the hammer for scrape marks that would indicate the hammer dragging in the hammer channel.  Also check the bottom sides to see if there is drag from the Gripframe backstrap.  With the backstop off and the wood out, cycle the hammer and check to see if the Main Spring is rubbing the underside of the hammer.  With the hammer down, push the cylinder back to the hammer,  the hammer should move just a hair when it contacts the nipple.
If none of this works, send the gun to me as a "present" and I'lll shoot it

Coffinmaker

[Lefty Dude]

I have an 1861 CVA that would not set off caps. The cylinder was short. I shimmed the cones with 22 ga. copper wire from the center conductor of RG59 coax cable. This was an alloy copper, and not soft. I made small 0-rings and set the shims on the recessed above the threads of the nipples, the 0-rings were crimped on so they would not come off, if the nipples are removed. This gave the proper clearance also so the Hammer does not strike the nipple.

With Cap & Ball Revolvers sometimes you just need the Farmers friends, bailing wire and twine.

[Montana Slim]

I'll never risk one of my guns by using the screw-method.

If I dry-balled a revolver, My first choice is to remove the nipple, then fill with 3F powder, replace nipple and fire it.

If I wanted to clear a mis-loaded revolver or had a problem where I couldn't fire the gun (such as noted in the OP).....I'd prefer to (1) remove the cap, (2) remove the nipple, (3) shake out the powder, (4) add a few drops of oil into the nipple hole, (5) tap the ball/bullet out from the rear. I use a steel military pistol rod, fits through the hole for a belt size revolver nipple hole.


If it were a long rifle or shotgun, my firs preference is to remove the nipple, add a small amount of 3F powder, then ram the ball home and shoot it clear. Be sure the ball/bullet is seated well by using the ram-rod as a gage against the outside of the gun.

Slim

[Wally Montana]

Many thanks for the information.  I pulled the balls out via the metal screw method which worked quite well.  I have cleaned the cylinders out and replaced the nipples and have the gun back together.  Darn thing still looks great.

Will check the hammer problem out tomorrow night after work.  Thanks for the offer Coffinmaker but I think I will just try a little harder to make it go bang.

Wally

[Major 2]

Had a Pietta that did that on one chamber ...always just one,  I marked that chamber but it was not always that same chamber.

AH ha ! moment

when I clean my guns , I would always pull the nipples , after close exam , one of the OEM nipples was short
and a new set of correct nipples, solved the problem.

Course.... converting it to metallic cartridges will have the same effect 

[Slowhand Bob]

Using rods to pound on the problem followed by a screw really jammed a Hawkin for me one time.  That was when I discovered why so many rein-actors carry a drill bit to use preceding the screw puller and it really reduces forces by reducing the lead being forced out tighter into the barrel or chamber.  You must be careful with drill bits as they will ruin gun metal, virtually on contact.  Better to chuck the bit and turn it by hand for this job.  Many of the muzzle loader supply stores actually carry drill bits modified to fit gun rods, just for this job. 

[rdstrain49]

Next time test with only cap, no powder or ball.  If still doesn't fire, check for interference as Fingers describes.  If there is no interference, shim one test nipple with very, very thin brass or copper washer.  Just a few thousands should do.  If no washers are available take a couple of wraps of fine copper wire above the nipple threads to form makeshift washer.  If either shim works contact a supplier of after market nipples.  I use Track Of The Wolf.  They should help you find a replacement nipple that will work. 

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

I use the handle of my Track nipple wrench to tap balls out through the nipple hole.

In the early 1980s I bought a Euroarms 1861 Navy...very pretty. When I got to the range, it also would not explode the caps.

I backed the nipples out a little, and everything went "BANG!"

I ended up shimming the hammer face with a thin piece of steel silver soldered to it. Other guys I know have solved the same problem by making nipple seating spacers by wrapping a thin copper wire over the top of the nipple threads, so they don't screw in so deeply.

After shimming the handle I shot that gun for over 30 years.

[Wally Montana]

Many thanks for all the information.  After much looking and headscratching I noticed a little shine on the upper left corner of the cylinder where it was cut out for the nipple.  Same on every chamber.  on closer inspection it appears that the hammer is catching a bit there on every chamber.  When viewed from above it is fairly clear to see that the hammer is slightly to the left side of the chamber (right side gap is larger than left side gap also).

Looks to me like the hammer is striking the left upper lip of the chamber cutout. 

And like Wow!  A response from Bottom Dealing Mike, whose videos I have been watching for quite some time.  Good videos by the way, I have really enjoyed them.

[Coffinmaker]

OK.  Leave the cylinder alone.  It cost more than a hammer. 
Stick some 220 wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface.  Run the hammer on the back and fourth on the sand paper with good pressure on the upper side of the hammer where it is dragging on the cylinder.  Also, with a small file, put  a bevel on the front edges of the hammer face, on the dragging side.  When the hammer stops dragging on the cylinder, your done.  Keep a little oil on the now bare metal.

Coffinmaker

[Wally Montana]

Thanks for the reply coffinmaker.  Due to work and other commitments it will take me a few days to get time enough to do this fix but it will get done.

I appreciate the help you guys are giving.

Wally

[Bruce W Sims]

Could be wrong, but wasn't there a thread a while back that talked about an issue with the
cylinder that caused this same outcome? IIRC seems that the cylinder characteristics
were such that the hammer just never quite came forward enough for the given
dimensions of the cylinder. The only reason I raise this is because I get a little un-nerved
when making something do its intended job means adding spit and bailing wire. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Coffinmaker]

Hi Bruce,
In some instances, Open Top type guns come from the manufacturer as a pre-assembled deluxe "kit."  Some adjustments have to be made to get correct function.  In this specific case, there is the possibility the frame is slightly mis-cast.  The pivot screw hole for the hammer, miss-drilled.  The cylinder locking bolt notches miss-cut.  The cylinder slightly miss-machined.
You'll note, all of the above involve the most expensive parts of the gun.  If you don't intend to send the gun back (an option), then always, ALWAYS start with the least expensive part.  Screw up a hammer, your only out less than 20 bucks.  Screw up a cylinder, you out about 60 bucks.  Screw up the frame, buy a new gun.
Sometimes, a little "spit and bailing wire" can work wonders to make a gun serviceable.  Your suggestion to fix the problem is ...... ?

Coffinmaker

[Bruce W Sims]

Thanks, C....yer waaay ahead of me. I think I was looking at the problem from a bit different POV.
So many of the threads seem to point out the wide range of fit and finish and I was thinking
that this subject might relate to the other thread I happened upon. Seemed to me that there are
two kinds of folks who visit here. One kind would rather keep their piece in a glass case and let it
appreciate, The other group wants to use their piece and tinker with it until it does right.

Now if I can just get folks to wear a tee-shirt indicating which group they belong to..... ;-)

Best Wishes,

Bruce