First saa serial numbered in Hartford

[Wheeler dealer]

Having worked. At USfa for almost 20 Years I can tell you that The fiRst saa numbered at the old colt plant was ser no 20100 it was a birds head 45 with a three and one half bbl. Made from imported uberti parts.prior to that the parts came in already numbered.imported parts were replaced with parts made in us when request to uberti to improve or change dimensions was denied on the premise that they could not provide those changes.new us made parts started with the cyls with a .452 exit hole. The bbl came next because the bore was not always centered to the threads.then came back straps and trigger guards.these parts were manufactured by local shops and quality was number one priority.after the move to the new plant just down the street from the old colt plant all parts were manufactored  in house  except for the springs and the hard rubber grips.springs were made in Connecticut and grips at first in ct then in mass.at the time of the move to the new plant there were about 25 old uberti frames left and they were never used as new frames were being produced at the new bld. So in essence after the new plant was up and running no uberti parts were used.in the event that an old uberti gun came back for repair it was updated to the new hammer trigger hand and bolt.firing pins do not always tell you went the gun was made as the cone pin was standard some times the conical was used in 38 or 357  calibers. The cone pin had a recoil plate with a .110 hole and conical was smaller.having worked on saa all my life I can tell you the USfa saa is the finest  made in the last 100 years.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Wheeler Dealer,
Welcome to the forum!!!  If you have read any of the previous posts I am sure you are aware of the fact that there have been many questions about the various stages of USFA's changes in production over the years.  Many of us would also like to know when these changes took place.  A major question being when, exactly, was USFA able to make the "all US made" claim. 
One of our members, Yahoody, is making a valiant attempt to sort out serial numbers by date.  I am sure that anything you can add to this forum will be of great help to him.
Again, welcome.  I am sure that you will initially be inundated with questions!  Hope you stay with us.
CJF

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Wheeler, Dealer,
No prssure here... 
1:  You mentioned that the cylinders were the first thing to be made here in the US.  Do you recall who made those cylinders for USFA?
2:  You said that barrels came second.  I seem to recall, WAY back when, hearing that the barrels were made by Douglas Barrels.  Any truth to that or is my memory faulty?  If so, do you recall who did make them?

Again, information that would be vitally important to those of us who are trying to document the history of USFA SAA's would be knowing the year (and, if possible, the month) that USFA went "all US made" and if that really meant that ALL of the parts were manufactured here, either by USFA or other US companies.
CJF

[Wheeler dealer]

The cyl were first made by a small cnc shop in newbritain  I think it was eagle tool company. Wilson arms was the first contractor to manufacture barrels. Douglas bbls were never used. Back straps  and trigger guards were first made by pinto manufacturing.

[yahoody]

Greetings.  Thanks for taking the time and filling in the details for us.  Can you tell us where the USA frames were 1st made?  All in house @ the new building?

You mentioned #20100 was made from Uberti parts.  Do you remember when 20100 was built?  From a Uberti frame that was numbered here in the USA initially correct?

"So in essence after the new plant was up and running no uberti parts were used."

Was there any recognition in house of that?  Would seem to have been a big deal when USFA actually became a 100% USA product?  Any record of that Serial # per chance?

at the time of the move to the new plant there were about 25 old uberti frames left and they were never used as new frames were being produced at the new bld.

Do you remember the date of the move to the new building or the serial number from the first USA made frame?  Or approx. number?

in the event that an old uberti gun came back for repair it was updated to the new hammer trigger hand and bolt

I have a gun which is an obvious Uberti BP frame on close inspection.  But no question the barrel is USA, USFA roll marked with a USA front sight profile.  Black rubber USFA grips.  But no where close to the later guns for grip size.  Everything internally is Uberti as is the serial number.  Can you give me some idea of when that gun was made and how the parts came together?   What changed, if anything from the USPFA roll marked barrels to the USFA roll marked barreled guns?

[Wheeler dealer]

I can answer some of your ?  Others I will have to think about. Us made frames were all made at the new building and I believe the move was in 2002.  20100 made I believe about 1997  or 1998. Right now I cannot remember  the first ser number  of new made frames, but I will think about it and try to recall. What is the ser no of your bp uberti gun? And are the numbers hand stamped with the old colt stye numbers or machined stamped with uberti style numbers?

[yahoody]

Much appreciated...it was a lot of questions.  I'll get back to you on my serial number as well.

You've just added something like double the info we had previous on USFA history in two posts! 

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

From what Wheeler Dealer has told us, I think we can now firmly state that 2002 marked the first year of "all US"' production with the in-house manufacture of frames.  Somewhere, way back here on the forum, Gary Granger stated that those US made frames were cut from solid blocks of steel using CNC machinery.  I also believe that that was the inspiration for my recently posted quote from Gary (and I paraphrased), "Doug Donnelly found the most expensive way there was to make a SAA and he stuck to it."

Not to be mindlessly nit-picky, but what about screws?  Did USFA make, or contract out to another US company, the manufacture of screws?  Much as we seem to deplore the USFA/Uberti connection, it would seem to me that purchasing screws, compatible with both old and new guns, from Uberti would have been the  wisest move from a financial standpoint.  Just curious.

[yahoody]

Not to be mindlessly nit-picky, but what about screws? 

Uberti screws are notoriously soft and pretty much worthless in every gun they make.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

I agree!  And that prompted the question.  I haven't experienced this problem with the later, "all US made" USFA screws.

[yahoody]

One of the things I have found very enlightening on this thread is how many local USA sub contractors were involved making parts for USFA.  All the past talk of the "many" CNC mills running "in house" were no where close to being "in house".

So now I get the comment, "most expensive" way to build a gun.  If you had the CNC machines in house and the skilled work force to run them with the addition to the skilled smiths to hand fit what was required you would have  a seemingly decent business plan.  Jobbing everything you use out to someone else that has to make a profit on "your" guns, is not the way to stay in business or control your quality. 

Old saying in my business.  Anyone can make one "perfect gun".....it is making several hundred of them and make money at the same time the real, "trick".

[GaryG]

In the early years, as WD mentioned, several parts were sourced out.  When I arrived in late 2005,  other than springs and the the black grips,  all parts were made in house.  Frames, cylinders, backstraps, trigger guards, and hammers were machined from bar stock.  Barrels were purchased in 3' lengths and were already rifled.  CNC machinery would cut these to length, taper, thread, cut the forcing cone and front site slot, and finally drill and thread the ejector rod screw hole.  From about 2008 on, nickel and carbona blue (armory blue) was done in house.  Somebody mentioned screws.  USFA had 2 screw CTC screw machines.  After screws were made they were sent out to hardening.  After they came back from hardening, each was polished by hand prior to a final finish. 

[GaryG]

At the height of production, there were 4 CNC mills.  These were quite large with a footprint of about 10' x 15'.  These made frames, backstraps, trigger guards, and the initial cuts on bolt strips and hammers.
There were 2 screw machines.  They obviously made screws and pins but also small parts like hammer rollers
The 2 CNC lathes made barrels, cylinder bodies (everything except clambering), ejector tubes and hands.
2 chambering machines.
3 EDM (wire) machines.  These made the final cuts on bolts, hammers, front sites, etc.
There was also a large machine (15' x 15' footprint) that carved lightning stocks and wood grips.  Any checkering was done by hand. 

The manufacturing side took up about 40% of a 30,000 square foot building.

[texagun]

Thanks for those replies Gary.  That pretty much answers all the questions I may have had.

[The Pathfinder]

Gary, I'm only sorry I was never able to get up there to see it in action. Do you know if the parts sent to Turnbull for the DT series of guns were US parts or Italian? Had Doug create a pair of black powder frame 7 1/2" 44 WCF for me late in the game and was just wondering. Thanks.

[GaryG]

They were all US parts.  WD can chime in but I don't think we started shipping DT serial numbers until 07.  The past is fuzzy.

[yahoody]

Big thanks to WD (Peter R. per chance?)  and Gary.  As with the guns, it is easy to get confused on what was actually going on, when, at USFA.  Like the gun quality,  things progressed as to what was actually done in house as well.  Thanks to both of you for giving us a better picture of how things were done, "from the beginning to the end."

20 years is a long time....

"In the early years, as WD mentioned, several parts were sourced out.  When I arrived in late 2005,  other than springs and the the black grips,  all parts were made in house.  Frames, cylinders, backstraps, trigger guards, and hammers were machined from bar stock. "

As a business USFA was around from 1991 or so?  to  2011.  First USFA serial numbered gun #20100 built on Uberti parts around 1997 or 1998.  Full in house USA production guns was ongoing by 2005 per Gary's comment on his arrival.  Very fun that we have a beginning and a end now.  It is that middle number that will be interesting as to when actual USA production began in house and a serial number to match the date.  By WD's comments and past recollection it has to be during or after 2002 when they went into the new building and started producing USA frames in house.

Great stuff guys!   Thanks very much!   The real time frame that I find interesting at USFA is between 2001 and 2003 as they ramped up production and acquired the CNC machines to do everything in house.   So far serial numbers we can verify from those years have been hard to come by.

some serial number references

21024 parts gun
21213 parts gun
21215 parts gun
21600 parts gun
21601 parts gun
21651 parts gun (likely 1999 and prior)
22113 parts gun
22180 parts gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?

(2002+ production?)

22154 USA gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?
22293 cone USA
22421  cone firing pin (likely prior to 2004)
22934 cone USA gun

and dates we have collected here as a group

-1999-
2102x
216XX

2002
A675 (some A's are known parts guns)
A676

-2004-
2271x
2276x
22966
22967
2299x
2310x
23123
2313x
78018

was digging around and found this:
"SHOOT magazine....."There is an article about the history of USFA. It states that for the first 11 years , the guns were produced in the old Colt factory, under the blue dome . In 2001-2002 they moved to a state of the art , 30000 sq. ft. manufacturing ,which became a necessity, when additional CNC milling units were acquired and it was determined that the wood beam floors of the old Colt building were not designed to hold the additional weight. "Tucked away on a two lane side street off I-91, this unobtrusive building belies the high tech industry that is housed within."
The address given for USFA in this 2006 article is 445-453 Ledyard St. Does that address now look like it houses a 30,000 sq. ft. state of the art maufacturing facility ?

Also found this today...

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Douglas-Donnelly/82740857

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Finally, some definitive answers!  Thank you, Wheeler Dealer and Gary.

[Whiskey Hayes]

Based upon Yahoody info and photos, WD info and GG info these are my assumptions about my USFA's

A675 and A676
Uberti hammers  (based on cast checkering)
Uberit frames  (based on little window at loading gate pivot)
USA cylinders (based on .452 throat)
USA barrel (based on slugging at .452 plus sight profile and width)
Both guns have very soft screws but I never have replaced them just been careful.
Only work done to the guns has been by me.  Wolff springs installed.  Stoning channels and slots which upon inspection wasn't needed.  I suspect this had been done by the USFA smith.  Shot these guns in competition from Apr 2002 till Jan 2009.  Several thousands of rounds with no issues.

22966 and 22967
USA hammers (based on very sharp borderless checkering)
USA frame (based on no window at loading gate pivot)
USA cylinder (based on .452 throat)
USA barrel (based on slugging at .452 and sight profile)
Hard screws in both guns.
Only work done on guns has been done by me.  Wolff springs installed.  Did not stone these guns didn't feel the need.
Shot these guns 50 rounds each and put them up.  Think they are the finest example of a SAA I own.
I do own 6 Colts.

Any insight or additional info to help with the evaluation of these guns will be greatly appreciated.  Hopefully this has helped to narrow down the transition time to all USA parts.

Whiskey Hayes

[yahoody]

good stuff!  thank you