Lets talk seriously about USFA....

[yahoody]

I'll start.  First off I am a huge fan of the later "USA production" USFA guns.

But I have also shot and then later owned 1st Generation Colt's since childhood.  For the last 30 years I've been a full time gunsmith, eventually specialized as a pistolsmith for the last 20.  Suffice to say, few will be blowing smoke up my skirt on the quality of the guns or how they are made.  I've also been successful as a firearms and defensive tactics instructor at a National level.  With the claim of  a State championship or top 5 finishes in more than one handgun discipline.

I can build a good one. And more importantly to me, make the thing run. 

How does that relate to USFA?   Well if you have one of the later guns...it tells me you likely have an exceptional gun.  If you have one of the early USPFA or even many of the early USFA guns you have a Uberti.  Plain and simple, that is the facts.  As nice as a Uberti can be, and I own several, they are not guns I spend a lot of time shooting.   YMMV obviously on how you view Uberti guns and good places else where to have that discussion.

USFA may have built some of the highest quality SAAs ever.  Or they may have just had a spectacular and reasonably successful ad campaign selling highly refinished Ubertis.   Or something in between.   Simply out of curiosity on my part I'd like to know the real story.  After all I bought into that ad campaign originally, with 7 of the later guns!  Knowing full well the earlier guns really were  just "highly finished Ubertis".

I'm also a "collector".   I collect quality guns I find worthy of shooting.  And those are mostly hand guns.   

I get as excited about the best of the USFA guns as anyone.  But the praises heaped on all the USFA SAA guns frankly IMO just isn't justified.   As one of the best known Colt SAA smiths mentioned to me this week...."USFA?  They are like Beanie Babies,  or a Uberti".
He might be just a little jaded on the facts with a healthy dose of Colt loyalty to turn a blind eye to the best of the USFA guns.  Or may be just know more than he is willing to write in public.  Likely the later I'd suspect.

The deeper I research the history of USFA, how the guns were built and from what parts, with a critical eye, the more I agree.  But with this much USFA trigger time, I suspect there is more to it than "beanie babies"  .

I'm not the first to say the USFA guns were dressed up Ubertis.  (Coffinmaker where are you? )    And when the dust settles and the full story finally comes out, as it eventually will,  of USFA production and material sources I won't be the last.   I didn't start the discussion to bash USFA.  No reason to.  But I do find the search of how the company began and how it ended.....and the resulting changes in quality of parts and finished guns in between those dates, short on documented facts, but very interesting.

Till then I'm gonna keep shooting mine!




   

[Coffinmaker]

OK, I'll join in.  I spent just about 20 years as a CAS gunsmith.  After all, I spent almost 30 years thinking true happiness was a belt fed weapon.  Still do, sorta.

When I describe USFA production as a "High End Uberti" I don't mean it to be disparaging.  Just an accurate evaluation of what you have in your hand.  A close copy of a Colt product.  I hate the term "Clone" and refuse to use it.  Guns built by Uberti, Pietta, ASM and others are NOT clones.  They are not and were not "perfect clones."  there just copies.

USFA as USPFA early production were built from Uberti parts, sourced from Uberti.  Finished and fit her in the US.  Very well finished and fit, and made into a really nice gun.  Later production guns were sourced from parts made here in the US.  Those parts were built to Uberti specs, from engineering drawings and information taken directly from Uberti guns.  An actual example of reverse engineering at it's finest.
Ever heard of a Russian TU 4??  Russians reverse engineered the B-29.  An almost perfect copy.  USFA did the same with Uberti.  I don't consider that a bad thing.  Just a factual thing.

For years I refused to buy any High End SA for my own use.  Colt, USFA, didn't matter.  to pay that kind of money and still need a full action job to be at all competitive for CAS, was to me, ludicrous.  Two Ubertis or two Pietta for the price of a Colt or USFA and in point of fact, the Pietta took less work to make user friendly.  Was the USFA Better built??  Yep.  Didn't matter.  Still took a lot of tuning to be real competitive.  Doesn't mean they are or were bad guns.  They are/were very well made guns just way over their head for their intended purpose.  Unless USFA always intended them to be collector fodder rather than CAS fodder.  I don't know the answer to that.

I'm a poor judge of value.  I only see them as tools.  I was a one time a Cabinet Maker.  The collectors at tool shows hated me.  They knew I was going to buy one of their collectable shelf queens, true it up, sharpen it and put it to use.  That is what it was for after all.
In the same vein, some Colts are collectable, they have "history."  Otherwise, they are just Colts.  Your not holding a piece of history, just a gun made by Colt.  To me .... no big deal.  Just a tool.

So, My bottom line is ...... TA DA.  USFA equals a really High End Uberti.  Well engineered, Well made, exemplary fitting.  Still needs a good smith to tune it for use.  At the money, should be ready for use.  Just the way it is, for me.

Coffinmaker

[yahoody]

Fair enough

As a CAS smith  those SAA and '73 seem almost like full auto compared to SASS of 20 years ago.  Just a short belt.

I get the tool thing.  If it don't shoot where I point it, not much use to me.   
I get the "collector thing".   But ya gotta be able to tell the difference between a $5000 dollar, silver dollar and a $25 dollar, silver dollar to have "real" value that we can all agree on I think.

And from our conversation about comparing Colt to USFA that was deleted...

I shoot them both.  For me and I haven't seen nearly as many as you (1911 guy here)  obviously but enough to say generally a Colt will be rougher inside but easier to fix.  The USFA generally good to go inside and out.  Unless it isn't then likely a PIA to sort out.  The bad USFA made triggers causing trigger "snap back" were a good example.  Hard to catch/bad parts.  My priority is always gonna be shooting POA.  USFA almost always do within reason...less than 50/50 on a 3rd gen Colt form what I have seen.   And the bad ones are really, really bad needing at the very least a barrel vise. ammo and a file.     

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Interesting topic, and one that has some merit when looked at objectively.

First off, let me say that I agree with Coffinmaker in one respect...  I HATE the word "clone."  Look it up in the dictionary. It doesn't apply.
Come to think of it... make that two respects.  Guns are tools.  For the better part of my adult life I carried a firearm on a daily basis.  Not because I wanted to, because I had to.

Now, onto USFA:  There are, as previously stated, three basic stages in the evolution of their guns.
1: USPFA stage 1 - the infamous "Patent" guns:  For the most part these were purely Uberti guns that were imported in the whole and in the white.  Once in the hands of USFA they were disassembled, finished, and reassembled.  End result?  An Uberti with a really nice finish.  Apart from that they were no better than your run of the mill Uberti pistol.  I owned a "Patent" gun several years ago.  It was so miserable inaccurate (the old expression, "can't hit the broad side of a barn," applies here) that I disassembled it for parts and threw the frame and cylinder away.
2: USFA stage 2:  Parts imported from Uberti that were finished and assembled here.  Fit and finish of parts generally exceed anything coming out of Italy.   Again, basically a very superior Uberti firearm.
3: USFA stage 3:  And here is where most of the pissing matches, arguments and misunderstandings come from.  USFA started manufacturing all of their own parts using CNC machinery.  When they did this they duplicated the previously imported Uberti parts.  Why?  Obviously so that the US made gun parts would interchange with the previously imported Italian gun parts.  Pretty smart business decision.  Unfortunately this is where we see the dreaded word "clone" come into play when people say that the US made USFA's are just copies of the Uberti.  Technically they are right, but that only goes so far.
Tolerances on the US made guns were much more precise than those of the Uberti parts guns.  Cylinder gaps, chamber dimensions, etc..  Are they better guns than the previous import models?  Yes, they definitely are!  Arguably  some of the best SAA's ever made.  Unfortunately, we cannot apply the quality of the "all US made" guns to USFA's previous offerings.

It would be nice if we had a more accurate timeline for USFA production.  When exactly did they stop importing Uberti pistols in the whole and start importing them as parts.  On what date could USFA made the legitimate claim that their guns were "all US made?"  The "all US made" statement itself can be a bit vague.  You can legally make the "all US" claim if MOST of your parts and assembly are done here.  Were the later US made guns manufactured here entirely?  Each and every part, every screw, every spring?  I would like to think so.

In closing let me say that I truly love each and every one of my USFA's.  With one exception (an 1851 Richards mason conversion) all of mine were manufactured after 2004.  Are they all perfect?  For the most part, yes.  I do have one nickel plated 4" ejectorless model that suffers from a less than perfect polishing job prior to plating.  Still, it is a beautiful little gun but one that would have been much better with a touch more quality control.  

So... even some of their "great guns" suffer some minor problems and anyone that claims that "all USFA guns are perfect" is simply delusional.
   

[Graveyard Jack]

The can agree on two things. One is the use of the term clone. I don't like it, I don't think it's appropriate and I never use it. The other is that I don't see any magic in a modern Colt. I care more about the quality of the gun than the name stamped on it. That said, I have A LOT of books and probably have more on Colt's than any other subject. I've bee pouring over the R.L. Wilson books on engraving the last few months and have the Nimschke book on the way.

I don't view any of them as "just tools" and pity anyone who does. If all I was interested in was "tools", I'd have a couple Glocks and be done with it. I certainly wouldn't be here talking about USFA's if I thought they were "just tools". I don't daydream about tools, nor do I spend tens of thousands of dollars on them. I shoot revolvers because I'm passionate about them and their history.

I wholeheartedly dismiss the "high end Ubertis" assessment with regards to the later guns. The early USPFA guns, sure. That's basically what they are, well put together guns from a pile of Uberti parts. The 2nd and 3rd generation Colt blackpowder guns, yep. The later domestic USFA's? Absolutely not. I don't give a damn where the blueprints came from, if Uberti didn't build it (or at least most the parts), "high end Uberti" is misleading, offensive and just plain wrong.

Anybody who takes apart a Uberti, a Pietta, a Colt and a domestic USFA can plainly see the drastic differences. Starting at the bottom, you have quite rough and crude machining on the Italian guns, partly because they run their machines too fast. Colt's are incrementally better. Their materials are better and their machining is better. Not perfect, just better. Obviously the guns from the last few years are much better than those over-polished heaps of the `70's and `80's. The domestic USFA's are incredibly well machined, well polished and well finished on the inside. I would never pay for an action job on a later USFA. With new springs, mine are as slick as a professionally tuned Colt but the feel is entirely different. With the tuned Colt feeling just like a tuned Uberti, the USFA feels much more like a precision instrument.

The polishing and finish work is infinitely better than the average 3rd generation Colt and at least as good as the original Colt's. No dished-out screw holes and lettering. No rolled over edges. No wavy flats.

I usually don't pay much attention to what 1911 `smith's have to say about revolvers but when the finest revolversmith (Hamilton Bowen) in the US says that there is little he can do to improve upon a USFA, I believe it. No manufacturer is perfect and anyone who thinks so has not been shooting very long. However, USFA got pretty close and their only rival in this game was Freedom Arms at double the cost. The guns really should've sold for a lot more than they did. I can't believe they made any money selling their standard SAA for $750. Perhaps that's why they no longer produce revolvers. It's hard to believe that only a few short years ago one could procure such a well made revolver for only $750. Even now, at $1400, Colt still can't get their .45Colt chambers right.

[yahoody]

Tools?  We can agree to disagree on that part easy enough.

For me a tool is a man made  piece of equipment to make life easier.  I don't find it an insult.  Some machines are better than others for the job.   A late production USFA generally is a better tool than a modern Colt currently.

So "tool" means a few things...one it must do the job as intended...second be reliable over time.  Hit the target where it is pointed and not break down in use with normal up keep seems reasonable.  I have made the comparison to Colt but shouldn't have for this discussion on reflection.  The subject gets easily confused.  Arguing why a late production USFA is a better gun than other SAA revolvers is easy.  Child's play really because there is so much to work with.  But they aren't perfect either.
 
I too have great respect for Hamilton Bowen's opinion.  I came to the same conclusion before he made that statement publically.  Easy to do if you had the right USFA gun in hand and on the range.  My issue is this:  Most everyone "thinks" they know how/where USFA guns were built.   Including myself in with "everyone".  From my own research I have come to question that.

I agree with Captain, for the most part.

"1: USPFA stage 1: the infamous "Patent" guns....

2: USFA stage 2:  Parts imported from Uberti that were finished and assembled here..

3: USFA stage 3:  And here is where most of the pissing (starts?) ..... "

But and it is a BIG ASS Butt!

With some research and samples acquired, I can without a doubt tell you that there were complete Uberti guns roll marked as USFA guns that are in the market now.   No just USPFA as we all first expected but no chit USFA "100%" American made guns that obviously aren't, if you know what to look for and what you are looking at.

As most realize when things don't pass the "smell test", there is usually a really good reason for it. 

I've heard all the stories and now seen/owned a LOT of USFA guns.  I would be more inclined to believe there were (#1) Uberti guns imported with various levels of finish applied here in the USA....and (#2) guns built from parts made in both countries (which might well include the majority of USFA production)....and would question the (#3)  100% USA made guns until proven without a doubt other wise.  And of those supposed all USA made guns (every part made in the USFA facility)  I'd like to actually know how many were made.

If the base USFA guns started as a Uberti and no one seems to doubt that.  And a 100 year old Colt can be faked and really hard to detect...how hard do you think it would be to built a "fake" USA Uberti?  Roll marks and serial numbers are easy to apply.

Anyone that has worked inside the gun industry for long knows just how well and how often the actual facts gets stretched.

I have never questioned that late production USFA guns were some fine revolvers.  My questions are where specifically did the parts come from and how many guns were built at that higher standard. 

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

This is almost funny!  We all speak despairingly about Uberti and the USFA connection but we all seem to agree that USFA, in their latter years of production, did made some of the finest SAA's ever produced.  I know that I feel that way.  
I have been buying SAA's for many years now.  Bought my first Colt SAA at an Army PX in Korea in 1967 (wish I still had that gun!).  Way back then I stuck primarily to Colt.  Some good guns, some very disappointing ones.  Probably the most wildly inaccurate gun I have ever owned was a Colt Purchased in the mid '90's.  18" groups from a bench rest at 25 yards and that was from 5 of the six chambers - #6 was so far off that it consistently missed the target entirely.  When I contacted Colt about this I was told, and I paraphrase, "We make the SAA as a collector's item, not as a firearm that will actually be used."  I swear to God, They actually told me that!  Thankfully, Colt has reversed their thinking and are now making very  serviceable SAA's.
USFA?  Even with Uberti parts they tried their damn best to make something better.  Was it?  It sure was!  Fit and finish on the early Italian parts guns was far superior to anything offered by Uberti.  Still, they were just finely fit and finished Uberti guns.  Toward the end of USFA's SAA production run, when they were making their "all US made" claim, they were widely acknowledged as some of the finest SAA's being produced.  So... what difference does it make if some of the parts were not actually made in Hartford?  I am not saying they were, I'm just asking "what if."    

[yahoody]

Captain sez:

So... what difference does it make if some of the parts were not actually made in Hartford?

To me as a shooter?  None. 

As someone interested in the history of USPFA/USFA it is just an unknown fact.   Unknown, just as we really don't know how many guns USFA produced.  Seems odd that we don't have that information and no one has published it in detail.  Late 2011 is the common date I see referenced as when USFA closed their doors.. 

Seems odd that current buyers are willing to pay $3000 for a gun that sold a few years ago at under a $1000. without knowing some basic production facts.   May be we will never know.  I simply find the unanswered question curious.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

As do I!  But my not knowing does not mean that there was any deception on the part of USFA when it comes to manufacturing or source of parts.

Much of this brings to mind a quote from Oscar Wilde;  "A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing."

[Tommy tornado]

I bought a USFA Cowboy for $725.  Sold it last year for $1200.  To me that was crazy, but I guess it is collectible now.

[yahoody]

100% USA made means to me 100% USA made with American steel, not cut from Italian parts or Italian parts roll marked "made in USA".  As I said previous,  I am curious as to what was really done.  Really curious as I have "100% USA made examples" sitting here that say just that to me.   

Value?  Cynic? 

A new 3rd Gen Colt can be had for well under $2000 NIB.  MSRP closer to $1500. at the moment.   A used USFA can be had for under $2500 generally.  I know the "value" of both guns to me.  YMMV

But it all boils down to what you/we are happy with.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Yahoody,
I meant no offense with my Wilde quote.  Being one of moderate literate knowledge, such quotes do come to mind.  The point of this post seemed to centralize on original price, current prices and the true heritage (US or Italian) of USFA.  The "cynic" part, for me, was the debate over USFA's "all US" claim.  The price/value part is quite obvious when looking at the current asking prices of used USFA's.  
Perhaps the quote wasn't entirely appropriate but you have to admit, it is a pretty cool quote.
My all time favorite quote from Oscar Wilde was about bagpipes; "Thank God they don't smell!"
CJF
 

[yahoody]

No offense taken.  I've been beating the horse hard on 100% USA thing for a while now.  Gets old even for me.  Looks like we finally have someone that does know the USFA history on the board.  Have yet to digest Wheeler dealer's comments.  But when I get some time I'll have a lot of questions.  I hope he has the time and inclination to fill us all in on some history @ USFA. #20100 is a wonderful start, eh!

Between He and Gary I suspect we'll learn a lot more shortly!

Great fun!

On a side note concerning the dead horse....
USFA made some fine revolvers.  Colt continues to do so today.
There are things I would want fixed on either gun as they
came from the factory.

The "value" I see today in USFA is not that they are better revolvers than current production Colt's (always happy to  have that discussion) ...but simply that there will be no more of them. 

As a shooter, "rarity"" don't mean chit to me...just makes finding parts when they break, (and they all do) harder 

[Blackpowder Burn]

I'm nowhere in the league of you folks in USFA and gunsmithing knowledge.  However, I did have a conversation with Gary Green on a couple of occasions when I purchased my USFA's.  If I recall correctly, he told me that USFA started manufacturing parts in the USA in 2000, and between then and 2003 they were a mixture of US and Italian parts.  By 2003, he said all parts were manufactured in the US.

As I side note, I also have a USFA Lightning that is a truly beautiful little rifle.  Liking it so much, I bought an original Colt Lightning to rebuild.  Finding new manufacture parts for the Colt so expensive, I tried some parts from the USFA Lightning (bought from The Smith Shop in Rhode Island) and found them all to fit perfectly - and for much less money! 

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

BP Burn,
While just about all of here own USFA SAA's, few among us own USFA Lightning rifles.  Would love to see side-by-side pictures of your USFA and Colt Lightnings!
CJF

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Thought of merging this topic with "First SAA Serial Numbered in Hartford" as many questions asked here were answered there.  Thanks to Wheeler Dealer and GaryG, we have a lot more information than we had before regarding the actual manufacture of the "all US made" USFA's.
Just wondering if the input we received from Wheeler Dealer and GaryG has convinced anyone here with doubts that the later made USFA's were, in fact, entirely all US made?

[yahoody]

For me the production gap that Gary missed before starting ta USFA was troubling.  WD pointed out the time frame where they stopped using Uberti frames and started using USA produced frames made in house.  From there it now seems like a logical progression.

Great idea to put both threads together.

I still have some questions...like the 10K gun production year that ATF shows?