Judging Originals?

[Delmonico]

I would think that any thing changed from underwear to hat would also have to be documented or there is no point in the class.

I've always liked the idea that instead of having to carry large amounts of documentation you just say yer proper.  If someone doubts it is correct they challage you.  Both parties have 30 days to prove that they are right, the loser then gets 30 lashes, it will end silly bickering and cause folks to do more research.

But I'm sure this idea will offend many.

[James Hunt]

Delmonico, I don't think tons of documentation are necessary. For my persona of a 1872 - 1875 hunter, I put everything into a 5 x 9  inch book fashioned after a dime novel with apporpriate cover of "The Adventures of James Hunt, Soldeir, Buffalo Hunter, and Heroic Scout of the Plains" etc., if fits easily in the haversack I carry my ammo in. It is less than a 1/2 inch thick and as I expand my persona I don't think it will ever get greater than 1 inch thick. Whole thing is a word .doc and I add or take away as needed. I have inserted alot of digital photos. Kind of fun to do. I got the idea from OT who has placed his persona and documentation in the form of a period catalog which he carries in his saddle bags. No trouble at all. Someone questions anything, simply pull out your stuff and say consider this.

Also, it is for the persona. My persona describes a buffalo hunter of the 1872 - 1874 period, and a hunter/scout in the year 1876. My clothing, weapons, and accoutrements changed a little in those few short years, but I have documented myself for those years. So I may show up as a buffalo hunter - see picture in inset modeled after Billy Dixon photo - or as a Sout in the year 1876. Documentation is there for both. In the future I may wish to show up as a Wyoming farmer/small stockman of the 1890's but will have to document that before I do. By the way I shoot CMSA and want to work my persona into the late 1890's. I'm probably the only period correct guy at a CMSA shoot in the country! Except for the headstall on the horse, and the holsters (use pretty thick leather to retain the gun), I think my stuff is correct but need to document it. Regards, Jim

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

I think I have a fairly good grasp of how the "impression" part works, and now would like to explore more of the shooting aspect, which is worth up to 40 points. Do the "Originals" shoot the same stages as the other participants of the match or do they shoot specially tailored stages?

Are they also required to shoot firearms that match their impressions, in the calibers used in that time?

Thanks,

AnnieLee

[Stina]

OK, this seems to be the place for a couple of questions I've been wondering about since I joined in February.

Persona's birthdate.  If I (Sheila) am now 53, and she (Stina) is 53 in 1894 (to accord with my weapons), then Stina was born in....um....just a minute....1841.  So she could have gone to university (Uppsala admitted women starting in 1870) at the age of 30 (since she couldn't go earlier).  But....10 years from now, I'll be 63, and she's maybe still stuck in 1894.....but now born in 1831?  Or what?

Weapons.  Stina grew up far enough out in the Swedish countryside that rifles and shotguns would have been around, but I can't really come up with a good justification for her to have taken up revolvers. Not something your average middle-class lady would have done.   Protection while living in a rough-and-ready mining camp? 

And is this sort of justification necessary for an 'ordinary citizen', or does it only apply if I'm entering an 'Originals' shoot?

Stina

[O.T. Buchannan]

Annie Lee, to answer your questions, the armament should match your persona.  As far as calibers go, something close to what was originally intended for that firearm is preferred.  However, remember that no one is going to MAKE you use correct calibers and propellants...the entire concept of the Originals is something that you do for YOURSELF...it is a PERSONAL endeavor.

In other words, the revolver that best fits my persona is a .44 calibre 1860 Colt Army Conversion.  I shoot blackpowder because I WANT to, and I have original style boxes and labels for the same reasons.  I don't HAVE to go this far, but I ENJOY doing it.  In other words, Originals are self-motivated, so you will find as a general rule participants try for as close to the original caliber as possible.  I use the term 'within reason', because when I shoot my Spencer, it is in .56-50, but is utilizes the centerfire conversion, whereas the originals were rimfire (there WERE some centerfire versions at the time, but they are a rarity). 

If you shoot a Henry, you have to remember that the originals were in .44 Rimfire.  So, I don't see it as an issue with a participant shooting one in .44-40 or .45 Colt.  See?

Other than that, arming yourself is the same as Working Cowboy....one revolver, and one lever-action rifle.  The main difference when shooting a stage, is that Originals don't reload (or it is kept at a minimum).  Working Cowboys, on the other hand, reload to maintain the same round count as participants in other classes, but Originals don't reload. Other than that, they shoot the same stages.  The stage itself is not altered in any way, just how the Originals participants shoot it.

Stina, to answer your question, if you wish to be an Original, you can do so even if you didn't want to be part of the actual shooting.  If you DID wish to shoot, then it is a simple matter of weaving that revolver into your persona.  Simply come up with an interesting story that fits....

[James Hunt]

Stina: Understand your comment about aging. I'm 56, my persona born in 1849 (I was born in1949) would have been in his mid 20's during the time of my portrayal as a buffalo hunter scout. Does it work? Does for me, at least no one has called me out on it yet. At 56 I have still to get fat, and still have most of my hair although less than I did 30 years ago. So if I pull my hat down on my head and don't look to many folks directly in the eye I feel I can get away with it. For how long? I don't know. Maybe I'll have to adjust my persona's birthdate if I want to remain in the mid-1870's 10 years from now. Maybe I'll just move myself to the 1890's. Who knows, but I wouldn't worry about it. If you can pull off a reasonable appearance, I wouldn't worry about wrinkles around the eye's. Remember, those folks led hard lives, with little concept or opportunity for medical care or good nutrition (that can be argued as they ate less calories than we did). They aged quickly, just compare yourself to your parents. I can do things now that most folks in those day's couldn't do in their 30's. Our appearance is much younger than someone of similar age would have been in the Victorian era. Besides, have you ever gone to a civil war reenactment? The most accurate portrayal is usually done by the few young females who dress as male soldiers, alot of old fat privates in that crowd. Hope this helps. Jim

[Major Matt Lewis]

Annie,

I believe whether the course of fire is altered or not is up the to the MD.  For example for the Originals Class at the 2006 Muster, I will require the Originals to have either 2 Cap & Ball Pistols or a spare cylinder.  They will also be required to have a Muzzle Loading, Black Powder Musket. (Yes, Breech loading black powder Sharps are OK too).  The Originals may or may not have to engage all the pistol rounds, I don't know yet.  But they will only have engage up to 3 rifle targets a stage.  If the stage calls for 10 rifle, I will not make somebody load and fire their Muzzle loading rifle 10 times on the stage.  It would slow the posse down too much. 

I also know that the Henry and the Spencer made their appearences during the Civil War.  However, Shooting is 40% of The Originals score.  I want to keep that part of the playing field level.  So, it would not be fair to have one competitor with a Muzzle Loader, One with a Spencer and one with a Henry. 

Since ithe match is a Civil War theme, I will also insist that The Originals keep their persona in the 1861-1865 timeframe.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Del,

I would think that any thing changed from underwear to hat would also have to be documented or there is no point in the class.

I'm with you on this one!! If you want to check underwear, I'll be the first one in line, then we can become real close friends.
Seriously, you can provide as much documentation as you want, from one page to a catolog if that floats your boat.  And, if you don't like the way the class is structured, you don't have to shoot it. As far as having a point?, why not the point being because we want to, and it happens to be a lot of fun. I personally find reading  another posse member's research very interesting. It's no different then shooting any other class in NCOWS, you do it because you want to.
As far as challenging someone, why? If you have the research in front of you, you don't have to challenge anybody. Again, as I said in an earlier reply, it is strictly up to you to provide your own documentation, you only cheat your self if it is not complete.

Some of us have built our impression on an extensive timeline, over a period of years. For me personally I find this the most enjoyable way to do it if it reads like a book. My timeline covers 37 years, from 1848 to 1885 and stops there. All my frearms, leather, accoutrements and clothing are appropriate. You try to be as correct as possible.

As far as guns and ammunition is concerned I believe the only rim fire ammo manufactured today is the .22 and some south american .32 rim fire, if you can find it, so you use common sense. I do try to use the calibers of the era if possible such as .44 colt, .45 LC and 44/40. I'm in the process of converting a .45 LC Uberti Henry to .44 colt because it is closer to the original caliber, other then not being a rim fire.....I do it because I just like to and for no other reason then it fits the persona I am trying to portray.

Clothing, leather, accoutrements, Horse tack and personal gear are all easily documented and it makes it very easy to dress yourself correctly, if you want to.

Plus, THE COLTS BEAT NEW ENGLAND LAST NIGHT 40 TO 20

OCB

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Major Matt,
You may want to ask French Jack and OT Buchannan, but when we came up with the idea for the originals it was to be shot with one pistol and one rifle only........somewhat like the working cowboy class with very few reloads when possible, so you may want to reconsider the class.

Bill

[Books OToole]

My "Originals" persona is 50 years old in 1877, submitted in 2005.  Next year, 2006, he will be 51 and the year will be 1878.  He is employed by the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe RR.  He is employed as a scout/hunter/security for the RR's survey crews.  However in 1878 (2006) he will be involved in the war between the Denver Rio Grande RR and the A.T. & SF RR.  From there the nature of his employment with the RR will evolve.  I intend to age my character and stick with him for many years.  By 1885 (2013) he may buy one of those new slide action Colt rifles.

I am working on another "Originals" persona that is a war correspondent in the 1890s.  This is the character that I was portraying at the GAF Muster.  The character is based on two well know correspondents of the time:  Winston Churchill and Richard Harding Davis.
For me this is great fun.

Books

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Matt,
When Fench Jack, OT Buchannan and I came up with the idea for the originals concept it was designed to be set up with any impression relative to the 19th century, including the civil war. Part of that concept was fewer guns used to be more realistic as to how the shooting aspect of the 19th century was. There are other categories in NCOWS where more guns, more ammo more shooting is used, but not in the originals category. The basis for the originals was one pistol, one rifle as long as they were used by the appropriate persona.
If you want to move away from that idea you may want to call it something else. One of the items on the congress agenda this month is to make the originals a NCOWS category with those concepts in mind. The GAF shoot is yours to do as you please and I look forward to shooting it next year. The originals concept was the idea of three individuals who wanted a shooting category more realistic as to what is in NCOWS at the present time, we'd sure like to keep it pure.....

OCB

[Silver Creek Slim]

Books,
I watched an Our Gang movie (The Sun Down Limited - 1924) the other day. The train engine had "AT & SF RR" on it. I couldn't figger out what the AT stood for. I figgered that the SF was San Fran. Thanks fer tellin' me what it meant. 

Slim

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

...the entire concept of the Originals is something that you do for YOURSELF...it is a PERSONAL endeavor.

I've nothing against it, and think it could be a lot of fun, as a PERSONAL endeavor.

But I do not understand the reasoning behind making it an NCOWS category. So far, it's ten people out of 2500 or more. For competition, the impression part of it is self judged and admittedly "up to the individual" for as far as he wants to go with it.  For the shooting part, the Originals don't shoot as many rounds as the other participants, which would require the match organizers to incorporate a different scoring schema within the same match.

Even within the category, as a shooting competition it would be fraught with issues. Is it fair and reasonable for a person with a muzzle loader to compete against a '66? Yet the firearms and calibers do not have to match the impression of a person, so are they actually "Originals" or "kinda, but let's be reasonable and shoot .38 replicas anyway, originals?"

After reading this thread, and thank you everyone for your input on it, I just can't see voting for it as a category/class. I do hope that the individuals involved will continue to pursue their "personal endeavors."

Sincerely,

AnnieLee

[O.T. Buchannan]

Hey Major Matt, I bet the Confederates who came up against the Henry and the Spencer back in the REAL Civil War thought it was unfair too!!!!!  Danged secesh rebels, they all need to be taught a lesson

Anyway, THANK YOU for including the Originals class at your shoot, we sincerely appreciate your support.  If you don't mind, may I PM you concerning how it is to be conducted?  I MIGHT have some ideas that we could go over between us...if that's ok.

Delmonica, why the special class you ask?  In addition to some of us finding this to be fun, the idea is ALSO to bring together like-minded people, and to share ideas.  When I attended the National Shoot, THIS was the draw for me.  NCOWS is comprised of a lot of different people, each taking their level of authenticity to the level that they see fit.  For some, the idea of the Originals is just not the way to go, and that is fine...it presents no problem.  For example, I don't wish to shoot smokeless shootist, but I have NO intention of censuring those who DO wish to shoot that class.  On the other hand, there are some of us who wish to take our level of authenticity a little higher, and the idea of the Originals simply brings those of us who wish to do this together.  We get to share ideas and compare notes and compare research.  

At the National Shoot, SHARING information with each other was one of the best aspects of this class.  Looking over each other's research, and seeing how other folks did things was NEAT.  Several of us brought books along, and we could pull them out and say, "Hey look at this, or hey look at that."  To us, research is not a hardship...research is one of the GOALS, and one of the DRAWS for us.  We respect that not everyone wants to do  this, and to some people, research is a hardship.  To the Originals, however, we are so fascinated by this aspect that we wish to come together with like-minded people.  I will also say this:  I have never, and WILL never go up to an individual and criticize them for their outfit.  I can stand next to a competitor on the line who is wearing pointed toe boots and a fast-draw rig, and that competitor will never receive any negativity from me.  However, if that same competitor wanted information about a particular item, or authenticity in general, I would give it freely.  I enjoy research, and I also enjoy SHARING that research.  I do NOT believe in pushing it on anyone who doesn't wants it, but I do enjoy not only sharing it, but learning from others who have the same passion.  This is why we are proposing the Originals concept, to simply bring together a group of individuals who are of the same mind......

[Quick Fire]

Major Matt, I want you to know that I support your "originals class" as you are trying to do it. I also understand how OCB and O. T. Buchannan feel as to only having 1 revover and a rifle in their class. However in the Civil War It would be very period for calvaryand  certain others to have more than one revolver.  Just my thoughts.

[Marshal'ette Halloway]

WHEW~~~
I just got done reading all of the posts from first to last.. and my head is dizzy from going back and forth, from one person to the next and back again.

LOTS of information.
Good stuff here.

Thanks from a "know nothing" beginner. I THINK I soaked up some of it..

[O.T. Buchannan]

Annie, a different scoring system?  Doesn't have to be, consider this:  If you have stages that average 24 rounds per stage, and all competitors shoot those stages, nothing has to be changed, even if someone comes along and misses half of their targets, right?  Well, if the Originals come along and shoot those same stages with less rounds, simply score all of the rounds THAT THEY DID NOT SHOOT, as misses.  As long as this is done for each Original, the playing field stays level.

Now, as to the muzzleloader vs. the 66, the Originals is not, and was never about that.  What Major Matt was saying is that he wishes to set up his shoot so that such does NOT occur, and the reason he wants to do that is because his shoot is Civil War based, whereas the Originals is more Old West based.  However, many of us have personas in which  the Civil War is part of our background, so we DO have something we can work with, and Major Matt is simply trying to work with us in that regard.

Now, there is another aspect of the Originals that hasn't yet been touched on.  As Originals, we are more concerned with history than with shooting.  Yes, we shoot, but it is lower priority for us.  As an example, I have both a Henry and a 66, and I am proficient enough with my Henry that even though I shoot blackpowder, I have placed high, and beat a lot of smokeless shooters!  I've also won a match or two (or three) shooting in BP categories.  However, my favorite longarm of the era is the Spencer Carbine.  The funny thing is, it is the firearm with which I am the least proficient, at least from a speed standpoint.  Still, I used it at the 2005 National Shoot, even though it caused me, from a performance standpoint, to shoot one of my slowest matches ever (ok, so I was dead last... ).  Still, I wasn't the only one shooting a Spencer, and boy was that fun, being in a class where others shot the same types of guns and propellants, and accepted the resulting limitations....

[O.T. Buchannan]

Delmonico, I share my information with ANYONE who I can pin down...they don't have to be NCOWS folks..

[Books OToole]

Since there is no overall winner catagory, why does every catagory have to shoot the same number of rounds?

Working Cowboy class shooters are only compared to other Working Cowboy Class shooters.  Ditto with all the other classes.

If the "Originals" Class has no reloads, why is that complicated?  Their misses are added to their raw time and it is irrelevant that they shot more or less than any other class.

I only have 6 semester hours of Math.  Am I missing something or are some people trying to make this more complicated than it is?

Books

[Lars]

Here is a SECOND to what Books just posted!!

Lars