Musket cap question

[Bunk Stagnerg]

 Hello the Camp!

First let me say that this breech loading with paper cartridges is a learning thing for me. My shooting has always been done either with a revolver ot a patch and ball single shot rifle, so I can use some help.

My carbine is a Pedersoli "Robinson" Confederate copy that has the Hahn Machine Works breech and fire path modifications.

Whether it is used with home rolled paper or Charley's tubes with a curler paper end I have the same problem with CCI caps.
Using CCI musket caps, the kind in the plain white can, misfires are common. The problem can be solved by priming the nipple with a tiny bit of FFFFg powder.

Better results are obtained with Dynamit Nobel German musket caps. So I do not think it is a gun problem but is a primer problem.

Any comments on CCI brand caps here would be appreciated. I do have some corrosive Dynamit Nobel German caps and Remington corrosive caps from a long time ago, and they are hot, but I do hate to use them with the problem cleaning the breech block.

Hold center
Bunk

[Blair]

Bunk,

What caps does Charlie Hahn suggest?
My best,
Blair

[Bunk Stagnerg]

I have not asked, but caps are scarce and pricy
Bunk

[Blair]

Bunk,

Check with Charlie Hahn. He will give you the info you need at the best price.

Of course, I don't know anything about this sort of stuff. The last time I bought caps was maybe 25 to 30 years ago.
I bought 30,000 at $12.00 per thousand to get the best price for the time period.
Those days are gone forever.
My best,
Blair

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Thanks i will check with him but I suspect he will be at the N-SSA spring nationals this weekend.
Bunk

[Montana Slim]

Well, I can speak with confidence on a batch 0f 2,000 CCI #10 caps purchased circa 2010.
Had a lots of misfires (20+%) and a very few duds. No problems with CCI #11s also purchased at the time.
Eventually I began a statistical analysis by weighing individual caps, and charting in Excel. I found a significant variation in cap weight in these #10s. Also analyized the CCI #11s , which had a very small variation cap to cap. Also removed cap priming compound in a few to determine primer compound weight. Again the #10s came up noticeably lower weight and larger variations than the #11s.

I repeated this with Remington #10 & #11, plus RWS 1075s....results for all caps on-hand shoed consistent capa-to-cap weight, with very low variation....and similar primer weight to the CCI 11s.

Either the manufacturer was cutting back on primer compound to save on cost, or this was a bad run for one reason or other.
Many email exchanges from the CCI tech guy and finally I was given the "option" to send a tin of the caps in for examination, at my expense, for consideration of replacement. I was warned that if the caps were found to have been exposed to, or absorbed moisture that I would not be compensated...Well, for the 40 bucks shipping/hazmat, I passed on this kind offer and simply put them aside for practice/plinking only use.

I have purchased and used many more CCI caps since then as we've been in a "use what you can find enviroment" for the past few years. I will add that none of the other CCI caps purchased since have been such a disaster.

As for as the musket caps. I have a goodly supply of older CCIs and we've used many in my Dad's vintage CW cavalry carbines with no misfires. Maybe they've recently toyed with the formula or quantity of the primer mix?...cost cutting at work, or just bad QC?

As far as age, moisture absorbtion and deterioration of caps in my possesion, I used caps that I've stored for nearly forty years, and have a few tins yet to use up still. Most tins were purchased new for less than $1.99 per tin.....all have functioned perfectly as intended.

Slim

[Professor Marvel]

My Dear Bunk -
I mentioned this in your other thread, but since I seldom, if ever, pass up an opportunity to wax on ad nauseum at great length I thought I would post here as well -

Many of us have had the problem with CCI musket caps, and the consensus has been that CCI put out a bunch labeled "for re-enactors" whatever that is supposed to mean. The reality is that the caps so labeled have a significantly less amount of priming material.

And now I see Our Good Montanta Slim has posted an analysis! I see the rat barstiches  lying scum management at CCI is obviously cutting back on raw materials & Quality Control !

One solution is to head to your local stores and try to find toy paper caps from Germany, locally my grocery stores and Walmart have "Legends 2,400 Shots Roll Caps " made in germany which seem to carry more powder. cut the dot out and apply to the inside of tyour musket cap for added oomph, but be very very careful, one wants to keep one's bits safe.

yhs
prof (careful) marvel

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Thanks Professor for the idea, but adding a little FFFFg to the cap seem to work and is pretty easy to do.
These caps are marked "multiple use" which means, I guess, that it takes multiple caps to fire the charge.
The nail polish and powder trick is a slow task, but is faster than recapping three or four time to get ignition and a lot less expensive and frustrating.
We are promised rain for the next week so I have time to do a lot of ammo loading,but when the sun comes out better stay up wind because there will be plenty of lead and smoke going down wind.
BYW Come shoot with us the  Darby Rough Regulators just 15 miles past La Grange on highway 71

www.darbyroughregulators.com (shameless advertising)
hold center
Bunk

[Blair]

I have heard nothing but bad things from CCI's the "newest" Re-enactors Musket size caps among those who are shooters of live ammo.
Go with the hotter German caps is my suggestion.
Giving your gun a good cleaning after a shoot also helps the ignition problems. Also, not drilling out the flash hole in the cone/nipple.
These are two thing many re-enactors (not all) do rather poorly.
Just a suggestion on my part.
My best,
Blair

[cheatin charlie]

Time for me to add my 2 cents worth.  I had Charlie do my Pedersoli 1859 Sharps carbine last fall.  He supplied a new nipple which has a
large hole in it compared to the rifle and pistol nipples I am used to.  I use RWS caps and have good ignition everytime.  I use his tubes and
also made some with hair curler paper that just fit the chamber and the caps burned thru the folded over ends with no problem without the
breach block cutting the end of the paper.  I clean my breachblock after every shooting session by taking the screws  and nipple out and
cleaning it with pipe cleaners inside.  Be sure to lube the threads good before putting it back together.  I have not had time to work out a 100
yard load yet but I went to 50 grains of powder to get Charlies tubes to break up and leave the chamber.  Have fun this is a whole new world
to play in and if you can get a hold of Charlie  he will do all he can to help you.

Charlie

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Hi Cheating Charlie!

Always cheat always win...learned that at Thunder Ranch

I think the nipple is the original one but I will check with CH next week. I expect he might be at the N-SSA spring nationals. That might just be the answer to my problem, however German caps seem to be hotter than CCI.  I may get another nipple from TOW and enlarge the flash hole slightly to see if that will help.

I tried some tests using an unloaded tube positioned with a bullet and found the CCI cap did not open the curler paper end whether nitrated on plain. Dynamit Nobel caps did somewhat better and CCI caps with FFFFg glued to cap bottom with nail polish worked every time.  It is a pain to do but I guess it is less expensive than using three or four caps to get ignition.

The carbine (a Pedersoli) had new dovetails cut into the barrel by a professional machine shop. The front sight height was a guesstimate based on the original. The rear is a Marble "Bullseye" long shank   (Brownell # 579-000-164) which may not be legal for competition, but makes for a good sight picture.

The bullet I am using is made in a mold by Accurate mold LLC in Salt Lake {#54-470S shown on page 13}. The base is a trifle big for tubes, but by splitting the tube slightly it pops right in place.

Presently I am using 3.1c/c or 3.4c/c of Graf FFG with pretty good luck at 100 yards considering my so-so eyesight. When it get drier I may set up the chrono and see how fast I am slinging that 425 grain slug.

I asked Charlie about the tube fragments I the bore and he said "shoot 'em out" which I have been doing with no problem.

Right now my range is flooded but when it dries out more testing will occur.

Hold center
Bunk

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Problem solved!
I was getting a new tin of those CCI musket caps out of the carton and noticed (for the first time) in itsy-bitty- tiny letters on the side of the box
"FOR RE-ENACTORS"

Now I really feel like a fool, but I never knew such a thing existed. There was nothing on the in only on the carton. I do have a good supply of Dynamit Nobel German caps so I am in business.

Anybody know someone in central Texas that can use them let me know
Bunk