USFA Serial numbers..definative? Help make it so?

[yahoody]

Likely that Gary Granger is one of the few and really the only person ( that often responds on this forum )that can answer your question accurately about production differences,  as he was employed at USFA and a manager there.   The rest of us will be telling you what we have learned from Gary and seen posted from him and learned from others.....Uberti parts were still used up through the 21XXX serial range. 

For some time now I have been tracking serial numbers for, Uberti parts guns verse USA built guns. so that the buying and resulting values can be easier to determine.

These are guns I have personal knowledge of:

21213 parts gun
21215 parts gun
21651 parts gun
22113 parts gun
22180 parts gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?



22154 USA gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?
22293 cone USA
22421  cone firing pin
22934 cone USA gun

Can anyone else add to the 22XXX range data?  Easiest way is to know the difference is by the firing pin.  Full cone like this one is likely a USA gun.



Tapered cone shown below on a USFA parts gun.



22155-22300- are the numbers I'd really like to see.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

I have one that might help - #22293. It has the conical firing pin.  I have always assumed that it was one of the "all US" made guns.  All of my other USFA's have much later numbers, 26XXX to 73XXX range (73XXX being a Double Eagle, the last gun I ordered/received from them before they gave up on SA's).

If only we had known that this would happen!  I would have kept records of exactly when each gun was purchased.

[yahoody]

Good stuff Cap.  Thank you.  I go back and add them in as people post the info.  Be sure to dbl check my work and make sure I put them in the right place!

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Best of luck to you on your endeavor, Yahoody. 
I, for one, have always bee a little bit baffled by USFA's serial number system.  For example; in May of 2005 I ordered a 4", ejectorless sheriff model.  It's serial number is 285XX.  More than three years later, Nov. of 2008, I ordered a 5 & 1/2" model.  Its serial number is 262XX.  More than 2300 lower than the gun received three years before.

Another point of interest...  when did they start stamping the three figures inside the hammer channel of the frame?
Here is an example from one of mine, the gun ordered in Nov. of 2008:

T2
2

Gary informed us, here on the forum, that the T stood for the lot number of steel used, 2 for the CNC pallet number, and the second 2 for the position of the gun frame on the pallet.  It was all part of their quality control system.

[Pangaea]

My conversation with Gary indicated that at some point in manufacture there were small numeral gaps in the ATF book of assigned serial numbers and the matching guns that were supposed to go with them.  In order to satisfy the ATF's disdain for this kind of bookkeeping, some later guns were given these earlier serial numbers in ranges that do not comply with the "transition" period or specific date times.

I'm pretty sure that is the way he explained it.  If not, hopefully Gary will correct me.

Philip

[yahoody]

The Uberti hammers are cast.  And even the checkering almost smooth by comparison to milled or hand cut.  It is pretty obvious.  The USFA hammers are milled or hand cut, and the checkering sharp.  Also pretty obvious side by side.

The USFA milled/hand cut hammer you show in the picture is considered a Colt 1st Gen style hammer serration and is not a Uberti part.  Hammer serrations are a clue on what might be a  "parts" gun.  But one must know what you are looking at..cast or milled.

USFA had several styles, at least 2 major ones (may be 3 or4, I'd have to look and count) of checkering/serrations on the hammers they used with USA production that I know of.  I believe I have samples of them all.  Not sure on the other firing pin style but it may have been used in limited numbers as well.   But all the USA hammers I own (in guns and spare hammers) have the cone style firing pin.

I know Gary mentioned changing some firing pins out because of primer flow.  Which would confuse the issue even more if the gun was a parts gun to start with and a cone firing pin added or a USA gun and a tapered pin added.   Lots of details to figure out what parts are actually in these guns in the transitional numbers.   Seeing a cone firing pin is likely the most definitive way to avoid a Uberti parts gun.

I have posted a picture of a pair of Rodeo IIs prior with USA, 1st gen style hammers, cone firing pin, that are case colored.  Same as what you have pictured here.   It is a nice detail.

Also worth noting if you are into the details.  The blued hammer's checkering with polished sides are often (always?) not as sharp as the nickel or case colored hammers.  One might think they are cast because of it.  The issue seems to be the fact that the finisher over polished the cocking serrations prior to blueing.   They started out sharp, then were dulled during buffing prior to blue.   Seems the color cased and nickeled hammers didn't  receive such unwanted abuse

Sharp checkering on the hammer and lots of it, makes thumb cocking with the shooting hand a pleasure.

I find the detail worth the effort enough to even have my Colt's  hand cut to the original 1st Gen style serrations.


     

[Pangaea]

The problem arises when you want to make a purchase of these guns off of the internet, you don't always get to see all the "parts".  Most of the sellers never show a cocked hammer, so thus, no way to tell what type it is.  Same thing for the hammer serrations.  This may be a deceptive practice or not, but it certainly works to the disadvantage of the buyer.

[Pangaea]

Here are a couple of good examples.  Both are similar pistols, one a prewar, the other a premium SAA.  The prewar has a 22xxx serial number and the seller is careful not to show the hammer serrations or other parts.  I would be inclined to say it is a Uberti gun based on what we know. 

The other pistol has a serial number in the 23xxx range and has a picture of the hammer, which in my limited opinion looks to be cut not cast.  What do you think Yahoody?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=478510252

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=478639798

[yahoody]

Part of the intention behind this thread is to clarify  the questions that need to be asked prior to a purchase.  I want to be sure on the BIN option prior to clicking the mouse    Serial numbers are the best way IMO to clarify a purchase.  The 32wcf last night was an easy decision..."all American made" by serial number alone.  Or at least what we have come to recognize for a gun built under that label "all American made" from USFA.

First make sure it says USFA on the barrel.  Not USPFA.  Next look at the firing pin prior to purchase if you are interested in a USA gun and not a Uberti.

The more the buying public is aware of what is and isn't a good buy, the more our "good" guns go up in value.  Less trash advertised as a USFA "all American" gun on the Internet hopefully. 

Problem is based IMO on the fact that USFA wasn't straight forward on what they were doing from the get go (where the parts came from  or 100% USA made) and continued along those lines until they went out of business.   I have no doubt they made some of the best SAA guns ever produced.  But not all of them labeled USFA were of the same high quality.

There are several major variations and at least two minor variations of cocking serrations that are not a cast part from USFA.   Here are the 3 major hammer cocking serration variations most easily recognized.  Note the cone firing pins on all three..which is always the best indicator to avoid a cast hammer imo. (cast hammer or machining a cast part is a totally different rabbit hole we have not yet looked into)

Left to right, 1st gen, rounded border, straight border.

[yahoody]

....The prewar has a 22xxx serial number and the seller is careful not to show the hammer serrations or other parts.  I would be inclined to say it is a Uberti gun....serial number in the 23xxx range and has a picture of the hammer, which in my limited opinion looks to be cut...

I would agree 100% with that observation.  Except the BP frame is likely not a Prewar Turnbull, USFA Armory finish.  I'd bet on that in fact.  But a Dome blue and case gun.  Nice gun but imo not what it is represented as.

Some seriously creative writing going on here...intentional or not.

"Pre War....Highest grade with CCH that has to be Turnbull."

Guns are local to me.   Not seen them but have asked about the hammer.  Seller does not have the guns in his possession and is a reseller.  The seller had no clue what I was talking about on hammer or finish.  Many sellers/resellers of USFA guns don't have a clue.  Some intentionally, some just ignorant of the questions.  Which is why the prices are all over the map.   Anyone doing some research and wanting to cash in on their original investment has looked around I suspect, with $700 guns now selling for $2700 and all.

[Pangaea]

Yes sir, this learning curve can be expensive.  Good thing I don't love my money.

[sixguns]

This thread makes me feel better.  I have 22421 with a cone firing pin, but the knurling I thought looked questionable.  According to the info above it is apparently USFA 1st gen hammer.

[yahoody]

Thanks Sixguns..another one to add to the list.

[yahoody]

I actually bid on that gun.  Seller was local and  could not get back to me with the firing pin info....over the 4 days I was asking.  Nice conversations how ever   About everything but the firing pin profile!

[yahoody]

Seemingly   Hopefully more numbers will pop up and we can build a data base over time.

[Monsai52]

...There are several major variations and at least two minor variations of cocking serrations that are not a cast part from USFA.   Here are the 3 major hammer cocking serration variations most easily recognized.  Note the cone firing pins on all three..which is always the best indicator to avoid a cast hammer imo. (cast hammer or machining a cast part is a totally different rabbit hole we have not yet looked into)

Left to right, 1st gen, rounded border, straight border.

Yahoody,

I don't know if you would consider this a major or minor variation of the USA hammers, but here is an image (sorry for the poor quality, it's hard to do close ups with a snap-a-matic) of the hammer on my rodeo.  The knurling is very shallow, only lightly scored, and the knurled field is smaller, not extending to end of the hammer as shown in your example on the left.

Best regards,

[Buck Stinson]

Is someone actually collecting serial numbers for a survey?  If so, I'll submit my USAF pistols.

Buck

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Buck,
Yes, Yahoody is collecting serial numbers but also requires the date (preferably month and year) that the gun was purchased.  Also, no less than the first three digits of the serial number.
CJF

[yahoody]

More trying to build a data base of USFA guns.
When the guns were built/delivered by serial number and what parts were use in each.

Going to be a work in progress for a long while I'd bet.  But I'll add the data to the "shootist" blog as the info comes in.  That way we can all have a quick reference point if you find a new gun you want to buy and have questions.

[buttebob]

I have a 7.5" Target in 45 Colt that I bought used in 2009 that has a cone firing pin and looks like a 1st Gen Colt hammer. The hinged box has the inside label marked 2002. Serial number 224XX.
My 4.75" 45 Cowboy is SN CB6XX with a two piece box marked 2005. I bought it used in 2009 also.