.44 Colt Rifle?

[Vance Beckett]

Howdy gents,
I have a 7.5" Colt Open Top and a 5.5" Richards-Mason Colt 1860 Army, both in .44 Colt.  My question is, if I want to keep everything in the same caliber, what choices do I have for a rifle interchangeable with the pistols?  If I'm in the territories ghostin' some n'er-do-well, I don't wanna worry about grabbin' the wrong ammo if'n I have to reload.   
Thank ya'll in advance.

[US Scout]

Recommend either the Uberti-made 1866 or 1873 Winchesters marketed by Cimarron (and others) in .44 Special.

I've have an 1866 rifle which has never failed to feed a .44 Colt, and I had an 1866 carbine that I decided to sell since I preferred the rifle. 

I use this rifle whenever I shoot my .44 Colt revolvers, which I tend to do a lot.  Its my favorite cartridge.

[Vance Beckett]

I would think that a rifle chambered for .44 mag/spl would probably handle the .44 Colt cartridge, too.  If the rim thickness and rim diameter of the .44 Colt are too large, it might be a problem.  Not sure how the dimensions of each cartridge compare.  Otherwise, a .44 Colt is "basically" a shortened .44 Spl.

My thinking as well, Seth, but I can't for the life of me find much information regarding the rim thickness/diameter, or any other dimensions for the .44 Colt cartridge here online, but have read somewhere that there is a difference in the Colt and Special rims.  Does anyone have such data handy?

[Vance Beckett]

Thanks for the imput, fellas.  I'm pretty much settin' my sights on the '66 in .44 Special, with a 24" barrel, and hope to get it fairly soon 

[Hell-Er High Water]

Vance,

According to John Donnelly in his "The Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions" the 44 Colt cartridge has a rim diameter of 0.483", a rim thickness of 0.045" - 0.047", a head diameter of 0.456" and an overall case length of 1.100".  The 44 Special case has a rim diameter of 0.514", a rim thickness of 0.060", a head diameter of 0.457" and an overall case length of 1.160".  He lists them both as having an overall loaded cartridge length 1.500".  If you are loading to this length, and as long as the rifle extractor will grab the smaller diameter rim, and the rim thickness does not create a headspace problem, it looks like the 44 Colt cartridge should function just fine in a 44 Special rifle.  Hope that this info helps.

HHW

[Vance Beckett]

It helps a whole heckuva lot!  Thankye, Hell-Er     That's the best info I've gotten yet...  I'll have to get hold of that manual.  According to US, he has no trouble wiht the .44 Special Winchester '66 extracting the .44 Colt rounds.

[jiminy criquet]

I also posted somewhere around here recently how to make .44 Colt cartridges from .44 Special brass.  If I'm not mistaken it called for making the rim smaller and shortening the case length a mite...

OK, found it:

The 1860 Army Conversion required the resurrection of an old cartridge, the .44 Colt in modern form. Today's .44 Colt is simply the .44 Special trimmed back from 1.16" to approximately 1.10". My fired cases measure 1.095". The diameter of the cylinder of the 1860 Army is too small to accept six .44 Special rims that have a diameter of .514" so the rims are also trimmed. My cases from Starline have a rim diameter of .487".

http://www.sixguns.com/range/cartridgeconversions.htm

[Vance Beckett]

Well now pards, I'm in a pickle. 

I finally saved up enough greenbacks to purchase a Winchester 1866 replica from Cimarron Arms, chambered for .44 Special.  I decided to triple check with one of their techs as to whether or not the .44 Colts would function reliably through the rifle.  According to the gentleman I spoke with...  they will not.  He said that due to the shortness of the cartridges, neither .44 Colt or .44 Russian would cycle through the rifle's action worth a darn.  OH, the rounds could be chambered (I assume he meant by hand, one round at a time), but as far as levering into and out of the chamber, the tech said it wouldn't happen unless the rifle was modified by a competent gunsmith.  He gave me the name of one whom he recommended, and I'm waiting on a reply from the 'smith right now.

I honestly don't know what to do.  I've gotten so much different information on the topic, that I'm confused as all get out now.  Will the .44 Special rifle cyle the .44 Colt/Russian rounds reliably or not?  With or without gunsmithing?  I'm sure you all can understand how frustrating it is.    I was really planning on shooting the .44Colt/Russians through my Open-Tops and the '66...

Anyone have any advice or personal experience in this matter they'd like to share?  Gunsmith's they know who might do the work?  I was really heartened by US Scout's post regarding his use of the '66 and .44Colt, but now that I've spoken with the Cimarron tech, I'm as crushed and crumpled as old Gus MacRae's hat (and as confused as Pea Eye Parker)  ! 

Thanks in advance.

[Big Hext]

Howdy,

With all due respect to the Cimarron guy, I'd trust US Scout with his real world experience.
The CimTech is covering his ahem..  If you buy the gun and it don't cycle the 44 Colt, then you got a reason to return the rifle, and they don't like to take back the guns.

If the gunsmith they refered you to is in Hearne Texas, he can probably make the gun work the way you want it to work.
Adios,

[Fox Creek Kid]

Another problem is that the .44 Colt is a straight case as is the .45 Colt & there's a good possibility that gas "blowback" will be a factor. Almost every person I know that has rifle in .45 Colt regretted it for this reason & wished they had bought a 44-40 instead. Maybe U.S. Scout will chime in here with his experiences here. 

[Captain John Jarrett]

Vance,

  Here's my suggestion(for what it's worth) . Get yourself a Taylor's Spencer carbine and shoot .44 Russian out of all three firearms. Problem solved, and great style points to go with it. This is what I do and I wouldn't have it any other way.

   Here is one on Gunbroker.com, I think you can do better on the price if you look around. But this will give you a start.

   http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44666670


                                                                                                                                Capt. John

[Vance Beckett]

Captain Jarrett,
Thanks for the suggestion -- I really hadn't thought of going that route, and it's a possibility...  but you know how it is:  spend months and months with your mind set on one thing (in this case the '66 as my long gun), and it's tough to change direction at what you thought was the very end.  If the matter with the '66 doesn't work out, the Spencer is a definite possibility.

Big Hext,
I'm afraid I also had an idea along the lines of your own, but I'd rather it wasn't the case.  I too considered US Scout's experiences with the '66, and that's why I haven't given up on the matter.  I guess I just want to gather more "testimonials" if you will, regarding the .44Colt's use in the rifle before I decide (something I'd thought I'd finished with).  I'd have thought there would be more readily available information regarding this specifically, but perhaps the cartridge isn't very popular with other shooters...   But if I can get a rifle able to function with those .44's, it will be popular with me! 

Fox,
.44WCF may become an option depending on what I learn here.  If that becomes the case, I'll switch to the '73.

Anyhow I look forward to more replies to this question, and appreciate all of the ones so far.

[Pappy Hayes]

Vance,

   I had the same problem when I was trying to decide on my rifle. I knew I was going with a 66 since it matches up to my Open Top and RM Conversion. I was going to go with the 44spl but several pards on the SASS wire said that there were alot off problems with it ejecting the 44Colt. But the main reason I went with the 44-40 is I plan to start shooting bp/substitute and it has less if any at all blow back. It is not a problem shooting two different cartridges. I have recently looked at the Spencer idea. That might be an option later. My only concern is not having the room for enough cartridges for the stage as I do not believe they will hold 10. Also I thought I remembered reading about a problem with cartridges going off in the stock. That would be scarey since it would be right at the side of your face. Maybe Captain John could comment more on the Spencer.

[Big Hext]

Howdy again,

The Spencer is a cool gun, but it does require the awareness that you will not be competitive.  If there is any desire to shoot at the top of the pile, the Spencer won't do it... but it would solve your problems with the ammo.

I would not give up your idea until you talk to a couple of good gunsmiths about making the gun work for 44 Colt.  There are lots of guys in my area shooting 45 Colt BP loads in their rifles with no real problem.  And 44-40 rifles are easy to find as well.  Options are abundant.

Adios,

[Vance Beckett]

Seth-
The '73 is something I'm considering, definitely, but a call to my personal "Swede" (remember John Wayne's gunsmith in "El Dorado"?) called to assure me he could get a Yellowboy working just fine if need be.  I'd still love to hear from any folks who might have had the same problem I have, and what they did to solve it.  Thanks for the advice Seth, as always. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I posted this on the Henry spot as well;

My 1866 is in .38 Spl, but I've watched how it deals with different OAL's.  The front of the lifter is sloped, and merely pushes the next round back into the mag as it rises to the loading position.  It is quite tolerant of varying OAL's.  .44 Colt is only 1 sixteenth in. shorter than .44 Spl.

Go for it.

[US Scout]

Vance,

I can only speak from my personal experience.  A friend had a Cimarron '73 in .44 Special that he shot with .44 Colt.  After spending a day shooting it, I decided I wanted a '66 for the same purpose.  I got a '66 carbine and never had a problem with it, except for the loading gate breaking.

I liked the carbine but had come to enjoy shooting the rifle length lever actions, so I bought a '66 rifle in .44 Special and sold the carbine.  Again, never any problems.  BTW, the man who bought the carbine had it modified to shoot .44 Russian and says it works great. 

A former Cimarron 'smith told me that sometimes the extractor has to be slightly modified to grab the smaller rim of the .44 Colt, but since I've never had any problems I've never had to try that solution.

As for blowback, I put a really tight crimp on my BP cartridges and have yet to have any significant blowback.  In fact, I've had folks ask me what kind of BP I was shooting that I didn't get any fouling in the action.  I do the same with my .45s and have the same results.   

I've had good experience, but I also realize that sometimes firearms have their own personal gremlins and it there are some .44 Special rifles that will not feed the .44 Colt.  The Cimarron 'smith you talked to is giving your the required line to avoid any liability - if you shoot a cartridge that the rifle is not designed for, they are not responsible. 

As for the Spencer, I have one of those, too.  My first one was very sensitive to OAL and tended to jam more often than feed the cartridge.  Taylor's eventually replaced it.  My new one is great.  They are, however, extremely slow to shoot in comparison to the Winchesters and Marlins.  That doesn't bother me as I'm already slow and don't care about my time - just having a good time.  Besides, the Spencer is great for style points, especially when shooting it in Frontiersman.

[Vance Beckett]

US Scout- The extractor sometimes has to modified to grab the smaller rims of the .44 Colts?  How so?

[Vance Beckett]

Well, the '66 chambered in .44 Special came in, and it's beautiful!  Very nice looking firearm.  I'll be proud to shoot it...  when I can (at least in .44 Colt).  The extractor will not pick up the rims of the smaller cases, and as warned, the rounds bunch up coming out of the magazine tube since they're too short to keep one another in their place.... 

Heheh can't say I wasn't warned 

Until I get the technical details worked out, I can always handload .44 Specials for its use, or buy cowboy loads in said caliber just for the rifle.

Then of course, there's always...  I wonder what I'd have to do to change my Open-Tops from .44 Colt to .44 Special?   

[Vance Beckett]

Seth-
Yeah, that's one way perhaps, but I'll make sure -- for sure -- this time around   But you know pard, I plan to make this work out the way I intended in the first place, with .44 Colts all-around   It'll happen, or my name isn't Vance Beckett...!
Well, it's not, really, but you know what I mean