Black Powder Measure Grains Volume Inconsistencies

[w44wcf]

Black Powder Measure Grains Volume Inconsistencies

I have found that not all Black Powder Measures have been created equal. That is, when set at the same grain volume, they all don't hold the same amount of powder.

For us that weigh our black powder charges, that matters not.

But for historical purposes.....
I first became aware of the differences in measure volumes 35 or so years ago when I purchased a B&M powder measure.  Up to that time, I had been using a TC (Thompson Center) hand measure.  I was preloading some powder vials for my muzzle loader and decided to use my then new B&M measure. Consulting the chart that came with it, I set the measure to dispense 90 grs. of black powder.  I was using Goex and to my surprise, the actual weight dispensed was closer to 80 grs. by weight!

Hmmmm. I checked my TC measure at the 90 grain setting using Goex and it did indeed hold 90 grs. by weight. After scratching my head a bit, I reset the B&M measure to dispense the same 90 grs. by weight. The actual setting according the chart that came with the measure, was closer to 100 grs.  Obviously, the actual volume between the two measures was different.

Cartridge reloading -
Fast forward 20 years when I became interested in  black powder cartridge reloading, specifically the .44-40 & .45 Colt.  Around that time I also purchased an older Lyman 55 measure. I found that at the "40" grain setting it actually dispensed 36 grs. by weight of Goex. My B&M measure did the same thing. It became apparent that these two measures had not been regulated with Goex powder.

Reason found -
The Lyman (Previously IDEAL) dates back to the late 1800's and was regulated with the powder(s) available at that time. I had some black powder that I had reclaimed from early W.R.A. CO. .44 W.C.F.  and U.M.C. .44-40 cartridges and when tested in the Lyman measure ......."Bingo", 40 grs by weight was dispensed.  The same result was made with the B&M. So, early black powders, or at least some of them, were more dense than Goex which came much later in the 21st century.  

Other measures-
Being an inquisitive sort of fellow, I recently purchased a few more hand held measures to see what their true volume weights were.  Using Goex powder and setting them at "40",  here is what they dispensed by actual weight:
>Thompson Center Field B.P. measure – 40 grains
>CVA Adjustable B.P. measure – 40 grains
>Traditions B.P. measure – 36 grains (Same as the Lyman & B&M)

Other powders –
Today we have several black powders to choose from.....
Least dense to most dense - Goex, Olde Enysford, KIK / Schutzen / Diamondback, Swiss
Lyman, B&M, Traditions measures set at "40" –
= 36 grs. by weight – Goex, Olde Enysford, KIK
= 37 grs. by weight – Schuetzen
= 40 grs. by weight – Diamondback, Swiss

Thompson Center, CVA measures set at "40" –
= 40 grs. by weight – Goex, Olde Enysford, KIK
= 41 grs. by weight – Schuetzen
= 44 grs. by weight – Diamondback, Swiss

As I said in the beginning, for those of us that use b.p. by actual weight, this matters not but just goes to prove like some other things in life, things are not always what they seem to be.

Note: weights taken by the powder "lots" I have on hand. Other "lots" may give slightly different weights.  Weights shown were rounded off to the nearest grain.

w44wcf

[wildman1]

I have found that 60gs of OE 2 does not take up as much space as 60gs of OE 1 1/2. wM1

[medic15al]

Thanks for that info! This interests me as a fairly new BP cartridge shooter. I use a Brass measure with a plunger for adjustable charge volume up to 50 grains and compared it with the Lee dipper of 2.5cc. The 2.5cc dipper and the powder measure set a 40 grns consistently measures equal with Olde Eynsford 3FG.

[Coffinmaker]

Well ........ Shucks.

I'm sure you've all seen the graduations marked on the ladder sight included by Uberti on the Henry, or some of the '66s and '73 Carbines.  Ever wonder what those marks are equal to???  Nothing.  Those marks don't correspond to anything we do today, and I doubt they match up with anything "they" did then.  Unless ........ rainging for the .44 Henry Flat, which both the Henry and the '66 were chambered for.  And we know how common the 4 Henry Flat cartridge is today.  My point??  You all want to know what my Point is, on this post.  Alright, Here goes.  My point.

Like w44wcf, I've looked at the reference lines on powder measures.  And powder scoops.  Tried to figure out what they correspond to.  Like my old RCBS.  Those marks don't correspond to anything I recognize.  So:  My point.  OK, I'll get too it.

I select a cartridge (usually a clean one) and then set my powder measure to throw too small a charge.  Then I start adjusting the powder measure (Dillon) until it throws enough powder (we are talking real powder here..... right??) that I get the correct compression when I seat the bullet.  So .... how much powder is that??  I don't know.  I actually don't care because it doesn't really matter.  We cannot stuff enough real powder in a pistol case to blow up a pistol (well, maybe with an Iron cylinder or obstruction), so the actual amount of powder is only of academic interest.  Same same with my Cap Guns.  I load with a scoop and funnel.  As long as my punch (Tower of Power - shameless plug for Dick Dastardly) can stuff the ball without air gap, the actual amount of powder is ....... who cares.

Where was I.  Oh yea.  w44wcf's post.  Absolutely.  The marks and referenced weights on various scoops and measures are for the most part, useless except as a reference.  As an actual measurement, useless.  My personal loading "Scoops" are actual cartridge cases, trimmed until they throw the "amount" of powder I want, then glued to a piece of nicely shaped coat hanger wire.

I have actually weighed the charges I throw just out of curiosity.  I didn't bother to write it down though.  As long as the ball/bullet comes all the way out of the barrel, it doesn't matter.

Coffinmaker

[Truly Grits]

So true, Coffin. We are trying to apply too much modern science to what was once and is now a lost art. It is nice to build on the experience of others, but in the end; go with what works for you, just make sure you do the the same each time, then you will be golden.

Cheers!

[cpt dan blodgett]

Who knew.  I have never really looked at the scale of my Lyman 55.  Just always set it to throw the desired grain wt measured on the balance scale  Figuring 60 grains volume and 60 grains weight for 2f should be about equal given the old style bp measures and spouts were supposed to be calibrated to throw the proper weight.  I realize that different brands of powder have different densities, not quite as different as say BP vs pyrodex.  The info published will be helpful should I try varying brands or granulations.

[Fox Creek Kid]

For pistol Ctgs. I use the Lee plastic scoops for charging. They are amazingly accurate, but vary a tad with brands & lots of course. I remember when the Swiss BP became available and it only took 72 gr. of their FFg to shoot to the same POA at 100 yds. that required 90 gr. of Elephant in my .53 cal. ML rifle!!

[Noz]

I have 5 brass tubular measurers, a whole series of flask tubes, and two plastic mechanical measures. When I have determined the charge that I like for a particular gun, I weigh it and then begin adjusting whatever measure or tube I wish to use until it throws the weight I want. Done!
No, I don't know what I shoot in my 36s, 44s or 12 ga. (roughly 21, 27 and 50+)  They go boom satisfactorily. Good enough.

[Fingers McGee]

No, I don't know what I shoot in my 36s, 44s or 12 ga. (roughly 21, 27 and 50+)  They go boom satisfactorily. Good enough.

Ditto 

[Dick Dastardly]

I get my volume measurement from my cartridge case.  I compress the powder charge between 1/8" and 1/16" with the lube/sized bullet.  That's my volume.  I don't much care what the charge weighs so much as that it's compressed right by the bullet.  My ammo is accurate and consistent.

DD-MDA

[Thumb Buster]

Same way here.  As long as I know there's a tad bit of compression I'm happy with it.  It is surprising though the disparity amongst the many measures I have so I finally said '...ta heck with it'.  As for the cap & ball revolvers I just dump what the throw holds and it goes boom.  Kinda' like adhering to the K.I.S.S. principle.

[Blair]

If you do not have a scale that measures in grain weight... don't tell me what your volumetric measure is in grains by weight.
Keep It Simple Stupid, (KISS) "only" applies to BP and BP variants.
My best,
Blair

[dusty texian]

Thanks for the information w44wcf. I have noticed that many who have taken the time and effort to study and measure and test velocity from the actual black powders made and used in the early factory loaded cartridges, have stated that the power level and density of the black powder used back then was , in some cases had a stronger ballistic strength, than some or most of todays black powders. In trying to produce as close to actual factory loads of the time ,this is very interesting to me. I often wonder why with the technology of today , the modern black powders are not equivalent , to those of the past. Or are they?  If I have strayed to far from the original point . Please excuse . Sincerely  ,,,,,,,DT

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I often wonder why with the technology of today , the modern black powders are not equivalent , to those of the past. Or are they?...

There is:  it's called Swiss and it uses the same buckthorn alder charcoal that Curtiss's & Harvey from England did in the 19th century. 

[Crow Choker]

Good post w44wcf, so's was yers Coffinmaker-Ah--all of ya had good informative posts. Anyway-back in '73 when I bought my first muzzle loadin rifle, a 45 cal TC Hawkin, I also bought a brass powder measure with a telescoping plunger with marks 1-10 that had a flat thumbscrew to lock it and a revolving funnel to aid in pouring the powder into the barrel. Can't recall the maker, Ted Cash and Dixie sell a similar style. Anyway using FFF Black, I assumed that each graduation was by tens, ie put it on 5 and lock it and you had 50 grains by weight and of volume of powder. One day not long after getting the rifle I weighed sample's of each setting and found that putting the mark at 5 would yield something less than 50 grains by weight, getting similar results wherever I set the plunger. Soooo, I set the plunger to wherever I could get the desired weight in grains using a powder scale and marked each reference on one of the square sides of the plunger to get the desired volume. Each mark is approximately 1/4 the distance up from where the 'factory' mark on the plunger is no matter if it 50, 55, 60, etc. I should recheck the markings someday. I used 'Metor' brand powder back then (remember it, think it was made in Scotland), use Goex now-could be some difference.

When I read w44wcf's first post, I thought that's what I found way back when, the "Inconsistencies" of powder measure markings to what they really are in the weight vs volume game. Coffinmakers remarks are so true also. I never had a problem with my early Colt style powder flask, just used what it came with, which proved to be around 30 grains by weight, just right for the 44 caliber Colt I was shooting. Over the years, esp since I bought a Dragoon and Walker to shoot, I played around with several powder loadings. I bought some brass spouts from Dixie that were supposed to be 50 grains, then cut/filed them to whatever volume vs weight I wanted to shoot, usually around 40-45 grains by weight. They work good on my Colt style and Peace style flasks. For loading my 44 Colt brass to shoot in my Conversions, I use a Lee 1.6cc dipper. It tosses around 24 some grains by weight of Goex FF. I give it a slight tap to settle it, top it off, and toss it in a case and seat a 200 grain Mav Dutchman. The tapping and topping gives 25.0 grains, works good. Do the same when I reload 45 Colt cases once in awhile, can't recall which dipper.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Excellent info, as usual, w44wcf.

Having been made aware of these variances when I started shooting BP, I developed the loads for my various cartridges that resulted in a light compression of the powder, then measured the actual weight of the powder along with manufacturer and granulation size.  Then when I go back to load another batch, I use a digital scale to set the powder measure (Lyman 55) to the desired charge by weight.  Works well and employs KISS.

[john boy]

Kid, there are 3 powders on the market today that use alder for their charcoal:
* Swiss & KIK use Alder Buckthorn
* Schuetzen users an Alder but not Buckthorn
You make the comparison to Curtis's & Harvey.  Today's powder is good but C&H was the Crème de la crème.  They:
* purified the potassium nitrate & sulfur more than today's vendors
* Their charcoal wood was Alder Buckthorn and ground to to very small micron size
*  The water they used in the mill was the best.  That's why they moved to Ardeer, Scotland plus the Alder quality
*  And they processed slowly and carefully with skilled employees
Their Diamond grade BP is considered to be the best ever made

[dusty texian]

Thank you for that information John Boy.  I have been looking for this info quite some time. In the past I have read reports from many trusted people stating that the very old black powder cartridges  tested were getting velocities that equal or best our modern black powder loads today.  That is noteworthy   ,,,,,DT.

[Dick Dastardly]

For SASS main match shooting, consistency is golden.  You can shoot Swiss or other premium powders but I doubt that you will see any difference in your scores.  So, when loading pistol caliber black powder ammo, be consistent.  Be very consistent.  You will then have everything you need for great scores as far as ammo is concerned.

Long distance is another ball game.  This is where consistency gets extreme.  Define your mission and load for it.

DD-MDA

[Coffinmaker]

10-4 Monsieur Dastardly.

BP and for the most part Subs, are very simple to load.  For CAS, as you state, consistency is key.  It is somewhat helpful to know where the projectile is going to go.  If you run light loads (smaller cases) or heavy loads (bigger cases) you amount of powder and compression needs to consistent.  Even if it's not quire "perfect" so long as the "imperfect" compression/load is consistent, the projectile will arrive at the same place consistently.
Fortunately, I've not defended into the fiery pit of BPCR at ranges I can't even see.  Therefore I don't need extensive case prep, drop tubes, funny lubes (APP = no lube), playing with patches.  I think it would drive me knutz.
I did fall into a smokeless craziness, called Bench Rest at one time.  Lugged a 30 pound rifle out to the range, with meticulously prepared ammo, in a attempt to shot impossibly tiny little groups and ridiculous ranges.  It drove me Knutz.

At the ranges we shoot for CAS, as long as you can get the projectile to come all the way out of the barrel, your in pretty good shape.  Everything after that is CAKE!!  I rely admit to being a wuss.  I don't like recoil.  Recoil hurts.  I'm old.  Recoil hurts more when your old.  So I load curious little short cases so I can use light powder charges.  I use a Tower of Power (shameless Plug) so I can shoot light(er) loads in my Cap Guns.  I'm also too lazy to mess with fillers,

Dillon Progressive, APP and any bullet I decide to use.  Lube, no Lube, doesn't matter.  Load em and go.  The reason it sounds to simple and good to be true, is cause it is.  Don't over think it.

Coffinmaker