125 or 158 for .38/.357 Cowboy Action

[nagantino]

I'm new to Cowboy Action. I've never taken part in a Competition but have tried, once, a Wild Bunch shoot. I'm using a Rossi 92 in .38/.357 and Uberti Cattleman in the same calibre. Finding a bullet though was not the easy job I thought it would be. I bought 1000 LRFP and have had fun shooting them but when I lookat experienced guys beside me, they are using RNFP but with a different profile. The shoulder is less pronounced, I think it's called Elongated. This profile seems to fed more smoothly. I have found a supplier who has this bullet but it's 125 grain not 158. Will this head/bullet do the job in Cowboy Action Competition?

[Pettifogger]

In CAS far more people use 125s than 158s, especially in the handgun.  Lighter bullet = lighter recoil.  Not an issue in the rifle, but recoil is a significant factor in shooting your handguns quickly.  In fact one of the most popular bullets right now is the 105.

[longinosoap]

125 gn will work fine. I cast my own out of whatever free lead I can get hold of, mostly wheel weights. My first mould was a 158 gn SWC that worked fine. Still have it. But then I figured I could make those targets go ding with a smaller pill and got me a 125 gn LRNFP mould. Now my lead supply goes a little further.

Like Pettifogger says, most of the fast shooters use a 105 gn RNFP. But I'm not fast, just frugal (that's uppity talk for "cheap").

Shoot whatever you got and have fun.

[nagantino]

Good advise. Thanks chaps.

[Will Lynchem]

I fully agree with all of the above.  One thing you might want to keep in mind if you shoot Wild Bunch is that instead of just bang and clang, there are a good number of knock down targets that may or may not go down with a 125 gn bullet. I use the 125s in both my Vaqueros and my 73 lever action for SASS matches but for the 73 in wild bunch and western 3 gun, I stick to the 158 gn bullets or a 357 mag to make sure what I hit, goes down. Good luck in your new ventures in CAS! And happy / safe shooting. W. L.         

[Pettifogger]

.357 is not legal in Wild Bunch.  It has to be .40 or larger.

[Will Lynchem]

Well I feel badly about disagreeing with you but more and more, most clubs except ANY sass legal lever action rifle for there Wild Bunch matches being it local,  or regional. I for one agree with the logic that it is silly to have to invest another $1500.00 plus just to shoot a side match once in awhile.  Yes, there is the argument to keep SASS "pure" but keep in mind that Wild Bunch was an add on to SASS and each has its place.  After all, there is more to CAS than End of Trail or Winter Range.

[Pettifogger]

Well I feel badly about disagreeing with you but more and more, most clubs except ANY sass legal lever action rifle for there Wild Bunch matches being it local,  or regional. I for one agree with the logic that it is silly to have to invest another $1500.00 plus just to shoot a side match once in awhile.  Yes, there is the argument to keep SASS "pure" but keep in mind that Wild Bunch was an add on to SASS and each has its place.  After all, there is more to CAS than End of Trail or Winter Range.

You can disagree, but the small bores are NOT legal.  The fact that some clubs choose to ignore the rule doesn't make them legal.  Could you identify which SASS sanctioned Regional level matches allow them?  Some clubs allow 9mm pistols and semi-auto shotguns.  Doesn't make them legal.

While I agree that allowing more types of firearms might increase local particiation, I have seen time after time people show up at a match other than at their home club and then try the excuse "well, they allow it at my club."  Whenever a new or inexperienced shooter asks an equipment question I always tell them the actual rules so they don't go out and buy something they can't use later.

[wildman1]

Wondered how long that would take.   wM1

[longinosoap]

I have a solution, though probably not popular. Do totally away with wild bunch in SASS-that's the SINGLE ACTION Shooting Society. Last time I shot my 1911, it was not single action.

I joined SASS for the love of the history of the old west. I enjoy shooting all kinds of guns, but a semi-auto does not belong in SASS, IMHO. And yes, I realize it is a side match event, however, SASS still has to write the rules regulating this game. I feel like it takes away from the historical aspect of this game we call the old west. My club is now allowing 1911's to be shot right alongside the cowboy shooters in the same posse, and, well, it just ain't right, dadgummit! That's what happens, the game evolves until we lose perspective of what something started out to be and why most of us decided to get involved.

Just my opinion! We will have to agree to disagree.

[wildman1]

Wild Bunch is not SASS, nor is it a side match for SASS. Some clubs or events have it as a "side match" but that doesn't mean that you are shooting a 1911 in SASS. Just facts. wM1

[jimbobborg]

Last time I shot my 1911, it was not single action.

That's funny, I was always taught that the 1911 is a Single-Action Semi-auto pistol, versus my CZ-75B, which is a double-action/single-action semi-auto.  Or that S&W 1046, which is a Double-Action-only Semi-auto pistol   

[Pettifogger]

Wild Bunch is not SASS, nor is it a side match for SASS. Some clubs or events have it as a "side match" but that doesn't mean that you are shooting a 1911 in SASS. Just facts. wM1

Actually Wild Bunch is SASS.  SASS has three sports under its roof.  Cowboy Action Shooting, Wild Bunch Action Shooting and Mounted Shooting.  They each have their own rules and governing principles, but they are all part of SASS.

[wildman1]

Yes but they are all different. wM1

[PJ Hardtack]

 I happened to come across this dust up while looking for something else.

After years of shooting cap & ball .44s with 30 grs of BP and the same in my 44-40 lever guns, it always put a knot in my knickers to have someone in the possee shooting 2-1/2 grs of baby powder in his guns, particularly when his rifle loads made more noise impacting the steel than the report of the rifle. That means you can't put the rifle as the last gun shot in a stage as it might not register on a timer.

Yeah, I know that we were in different categories, but we are supposed to be shooting COWBOY GUNS. That suggests to me COWBOY LOADS. Back in the day of ONE pistol, the .44s and .45s ruled and most of us shot pretty stout loads with heavy bullets. I started out with a Ruger Vaquero in .44 magnum (shooting .44 Spl.) and it was years before I knew there was a bullet weight other than 240 grs.
My carbine was a B-92 using 11 grs of 2400 and the same 240 gr bullet.

The guys in "Classic Cowboy/Cow girl" really get the shaft if they are shooting BP .44 and .45 loads against lightly loaded smokeless loads.  Is that in the "Spirit of the Game"?

One of reasons I like "Wild Bunch" is because it uses guns of the Mexican Revolution era, including the 1911. I know the 1911 can be tuned to operate with light SWC target loads, but the people I shoot with are not doing that, most preferring the classic 230 RN, albeit in lead, not FMJ. My 230 gr loads would make IPSC 'major'.

'Wild Bunch' is the one aspect of SASS where there is a semblance of a reasonable power factor. Let's keep it that way.

[Coffinmaker]

Step right up folks !!!  See little egypt do his famous dance of the seven pyramids!!!  He walks, He talks, He crawls on his belly like a reptile  and while we await his performance, let me introduce you to Professor Marvel's Wonderous Snake Oil, Cures everything ..........

So why don't we get back to the original question??  The OP didn't ask for an opinionated dust up about power factors and other assorted differences of opinion about how CAS "should" be shot.  Let us try to remember "It Just A F@#$%^&* GAME."  Intended and set up so ALL can play at their own CHOSEN level.  Nobody "gets the shaft" if they CHOOSE to shoot big bullets over heavy loads.  their just playing the game at their CHOSEN level.  SO GIVE IT A REST AWREADY!!

What is best is determined by what you want to accomplish.  If you want to "compete" for the brass ring, best is light bullets with light loads and guns tuned to the Nth degree.

If you want to have fun without beating up yourself or your guns, light bullets with light or moderate loads and guns set up well enough your not fighting your equipment.

If you thing is being the "Manly Man" and hammering you hands and wrists with big bullets and heavy loads, hey go for it.  You just don't get to whine about the guy with Mouse Phart ammo.  Your not competing with him/her.  Your competing with yourself.  Conversely, if your shooting Mouse Pharts for SPEED, you don't get to snicker at the dude or dudette running Warthog.  Everybody makes THEIR OWN choices.

My suggestion (which, by the way is the CORRECT one) is to start somewhere.  Anywhere.  Light loads, Heavy loads, doesn't matter.  Just START.  If you find you don't like the initial results ....... CHANGE.  Simple.  If you don't like Budwiser, give Dead Guy a try (Dead Guy is better).  It is easier if your Rifle and Handguns digest the same ammunition.  You can mix of course.  Just be ready to clear that Phat 45 out of your 44-40 rifle.  We will point and giggle (well, I WILL anyway).

There is only one hard, fast, unbreakable rule.  THOU SHALT HAVE FUN!!!  If your not having fun .... GO HOME!!

We return to our regularly scheduled programming .

Coffinmaker

[PJ Hardtack]

Glad to hear your opinion is the only one that matters! The powers that be did a wise thing when establishing the eligible guns for 'Wild Bunch" - IMHO. I'd shoot WB exclusively if I could.

It has nothing to do with being manly or macho. Just a preference.

In any case - MERRY CHRISTMAS!  I don't drink, but I hope you crack a few barley sandwiches during the holidays. I'll be x-country skiing daily and looking forward to a good CAS season in 2017 - especially in "Wild Bunch" with John Browning's iconic 1911.