.45-70 reduced bp loads

[Rosco]

howdy y'all,

lookin to lighten the load on my sharps and rollin block rifles, for the grandkids to shoot and fer just using less bp at the shorter ranges.  will use my cast lyman 415 grain 1:20 lead.  i don't feel comfy going the cow filler method, was thinkin more about using a thick wad, like the 1/2" circle fly fiber wad, then card wad to protect the bullet base.  maybe 50 grains or so of swiss 1-1/2 under all that.  add some compression?  just never did this and i'm sure someone round these parts got the skinny on using fat wads in the .45-70.

much obliged, sirs! 

[Tascosa Joe]

I regularly shoot a 405 gr with 55 grains of 2f KIK in a trap door carbine.  I use a felt wad and a card to take up the space.  At 50 yards it seems to be fairly accurate.

[Rosco]

thanx fer the good scoop, tj.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I regularly shoot a 405 gr with 55 grains of 2f KIK in a trap door carbine.  I use a felt wad and a card to take up the space.  At 50 yards it seems to be fairly accurate.

I believe that this was the Carbine load.

I recall reading that Elmer Keith pressed a roundball down into the case over 40 grains of gunpowder.  Matthews wrote that he had trouble getting any accuracy from his mouse-phart loads. The problem seemed to be the long barrel time of low velocity loads. The rifle moved quite a bit before the projectile left the muzzle.

[Blair]

Just a suggestion on my part,
But, I would start young folks out with a light bullet and short ranges.
If you feel you need the use of some filler/wadding to help offer some compression to your powder charge, then do so. But the light bullet will help reduce "felt" recoil the quickest.

The round ball loadings would be the lightest. If I remember correctly, these were called Gallery Loads.
I hope this may help.
My best,
Blair

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

For any beginner to firearms, I recommend the lowly .22rf.  Once they get comfortable and gain consistent results then transition to a somewhat heavier load. If you have a pistol caliber levergun, that might be he next step. You might have already passed these milestones, so a +- 300 gr bullet over a gallery charge with fillers would be the next step.

Flower foam is something I heard mentioned in the past. Or backer foam from your DIY store might work.

[Rosco]

thanx folks.  these are my youngest grandkids, 12 & 14.  they're already shooting .45-70s with summa that cheerio powder and 405 lead out to 200 yards.  now they wanna shoot bp like grandpa and so the quest for a light holy black load that ain't gonna knock 'em over.  i do s'pose i could cast some lead in the lower 300 grain range, too.  still, i'd wanna back off on the powder, if only to make it a bit more economical.

i guess i just gotta build some rounds with that 1/2" circle fly fiber wadding, see how much bp is needed, and test 'em out.

thanx again.  

[Rosco]

oh yeah, round ball gallery loads - nope don't wanna go there, no long range accuracy.  but i appreciate the suggestion.

[wildman1]

With the right velocity-twist combinations RB's can be very accurate. wM1

[Rosco]

With the right velocity-twist combinations RB's can be very accurate. wM1

yep - outta my flintlock rifles.   

but i'm stickin with grease groove lead for my 45s. 

[Ranch 13]

If you're going to use that thick of a wad, it is imperative the inside of the case mouths be absolutely clean , slick and shiny, other wise you could start pulling the cases in two..
Another thing to keep in mind that light of a powder charge may or may not give that bullet enough velocity to stabilize well if your rifle has an 18 twist barrel.
Heavy fouling might be another problem you'll find when shooting those reduced loads.
Probably a better route to go with Goex or KIK 1f, fill the case with just enough powder to give about 1/10 inch compression with a .060 fiber wad. If they can't take the recoil from that, you might also want to think about cutting the stock down to give them the proper length of pull so they can handle the recoil.

[Rosco]

circle fly sez the 1/2" fiber wads disintegrate on bp burn (bullet wad required), but maybe it's better they get lubed, too?

[Ranch 13]

I would just find better alternatives.

[Dick Dastardly]

The EPP-UG bullet can give excellent accuracy with 45-70 rifles.  It weighs in at 150 grains and hauls plenty of lube.  I've shot it over 30 grains of FFFg Schuetzen black powder using a standard 1/8" .460 over powder wad and grits under the bullet.  Recoil is almost non existent but there's enough smoke and flames to satisfy.  I find this a good camp meat round.

DD-MDA

[Bunk Stagnerg]

.45-70 Gallery loads
In his book Wolf mentions a load of 5 grains of FFFg under a .457 ball that gives acceptable accuracy at 25 yards. The ball is pushed down until it touches the powder.

I tried this using a ball lubricated with liquid ALOX and about 8 grains of GOEX FFFg in my 1886 Winchester rifle. They had to be loaded single shot, of course, but I had fun knocking down 6" KD targets at 30 feet. They made a very quiet load and almost no smoke. I was concerned about fouling with a petroleum based lube, but after 20 rounds the barrel cleaned up with no more effort than usual.

He also talks about using a 230 gain hollow base pistol bullet the same way, but does not mention a power charge. I would expect that ten to twenty grains of FFFg powder would make a good plinking round or for off have practice. I may try this in the future time permitting and will report on the reslts.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk

[Mason Stillwell]

Dick you are spot on. I use those for plainsman with hardly no recoil . Well I should have said , Used.

[Dick Dastardly]

FWIW, both the DD/ROA-Flat and the EPP-UG Big Lube®LLC bullets are capable of outstanding accuracy within 100 yards.  30 grains of FFFg black powder, filler and .460" over powder wad.  I like to use a compression die to firm everything up before seating the lube/sized bullets.

DD-MDA

[Quick Fire]

I regularly load about 35 grains of 2ff black and malt o meal filler for use as a main match load at our range. No felt recoil out of a lever gun. or a trapdoor carbine.

Quick Fire