Heads Up, Load data

[Camille Eonich]

But then, some of us are from the "one shot, one kill" world, not the "spray and pray" world.

Lars

You might could say that I "spray and pray" but Stump actually has quite a good reputation for shooting clean matches. Including EOT 2005, MDS 2004, NC State 2004.  Well, maybe he "sprays and prays" a bit a local matches but if you don't shoot fast you won't ever learn to shoot fast.    

[Lars]

if you don't shoot fast you won't ever learn to shoot fast.    

For some of us, shooting fast is only meaningful in the context of fast second shots from SXS or O/U or follow up shots from a hunting rifle (never needed one yet, in over 50 years of hunting). That I learned to do decades ago. SASS-barrages just are not appealling, more like appalling. That is one of many reasons I quit SASS.

Lars

[Camille Eonich]

Yes but Lars, the majority of the questions that are asked and are answered here have to do with CAS and SASS and are therefore answered in that context.  If you are answering in the context of some other shooting discipline it would be helpful to people to point that out.  Especially people who are just getting into SASS, CAS and who may be lurking and thinking about giving it a try.

I have taken up to ten minutes to take a shot but that is outside of CAS.  In CAS they don't time you to see how slow you can go.  It is, in fact to see how fast you can go accurately.


In hunting or in accuracy games you get into a whole different aspect of reloading and gun types, sighting mechanisms.  If you would like to discuss those things I would be happy to discuss them with you in another topic.  I feel that we have already taken things to far off topic in this thread.

[Lars]

My comments were in context of CAS, in the broader sense, not just the SASS ammo dump version. My comments are quite within the common ground of CAS, perhaps the latter ones are not quite as neatly within the topic of this thread. This response is directed solely at your misrepresentation of my previous post.

The last CAS shoot I participated in was the GAF Muster. Two days, targets nearly all 28 inch IPSC pepper poppers set at well past SASS ranges. One rifle, one revolver, multiple full reloads of of each on the clock. Hardly a typical SASS ammo dump shoot. Far more fun!!

Try a Western3Gun match sometime. WAY more emphasis on accurate shooting, in that case by awarding one second bonus points for each shot that falls inside an approximately 6,0 inch circle. The first such match I shot was my first time shooting revolvers one-handed, lefthanded, rifle too. I got all my revolver bonuses and lost a couple with the borrowed rifle. I finished right near the bottom but as as happy with the result as any other shoote was with theirs.

Any folks lurking should be able to learn that all of CAS is not the SASS-rapid fire, spend a bunch of money on competition guns, sport that SASS is. There is far more to CAS than what the Wild Bunch thinks it is. I would strongly urge intrested shooters to investivate any local NCOWS, Grand Army of the Frontier, and Western3Gun clubs and shoots.

Lars

[Camille Eonich]

Lars, SASS does require accuracy.  At 5 seconds a miss you can't win, or even place good, if you're missing your targets.  It also requires the ability to do shoot quickly while being accurate.


I don't understand the derogatory remarks that so many people from other shooting disciplines make towards SASS shooters.  I don't see the same thing from SASS shooters towards people who participate in other shooting sports.

If there is a timer involved in shooting it is a competition.  If there are deductions for missing there is a level of accuracy involved. 

Back to reloading, you load how you need to reload in order to accomplish your goals while shooting.  Why disparage other people for doing the same thing?  If a person's reloads are accomplishing what they set out to accomplish then they are creating successful ammo. 

I agree with Del, if you are having a lot of problems with your reloaded ammo then you are doing something wrong.  Stump and I shoot many matches every month and have been shooting CAS for three years now.  In that time we have had 3 "problem" loads.  Two were light loads that still exited the barrel and hit the target but there was a noticeable difference in the load.  One was a double load which still remained under the max specified for load, caliber and gun.

Yes, we load our CAS ammo differently than we do our long range ammo, extremely different.  That doesn't mean that our loads aren't accurate and reliable.  There are many. many people in CAS, as well as SASS, that have the same philosophy.

Loads should be adjusted according to the purpose that they will serve no matter if you shoot SASS, CAS, WASA, NCOWS, plink, shoot IPSC, IDPA, skeet, trap, or hunt.  Also take into consideration that if you are loading for hunting that the game that you will be harvesting will have an impact on the load.

[Lars]

I don't understand the derogatory remarks that so many people from other shooting disciplines make towards SASS shooters.  I don't see the same thing from SASS shooters towards people who participate in other shooting sports.

Back to reloading, you load how you need to reload in order to accomplish your goals while shooting.  Why disparage other people for doing the same thing?  If a person's reloads are accomplishing what they set out to accomplish then they are creating successful ammo. 

I agree with Del, if you are having a lot of problems with your reloaded ammo then you are doing something wrong. 

I have very clear memories of lots and lots of SASS shooters on the SASS Wire strongly bad mouthing IPSC shooters. I don't shoot IPSC but I do shoot with lots of folks that do -- very nice folks.

I also do not see that advocacy for some forms of CAS is deregatory towards SASS, unless one happens to be a member of the Wild Bunch.

I shoot SASS matches for many years. Winter Range was and remains my favorate SASS match by a wide margin. I got my opinions about SASS by direct involvement. I switched to the other forms of CAS after SASS became such a turn-off -- the Wild Bunch had direct involvement in that. I may choose to do another Winter Range match sometime -- I miss shooting Winter Range with my friends.

I am one of those old, old reloaders, having been doing it since the 1950s. I load the slow old ways with single stage tools and lots and lots of checks. No squibs in unknown 10s of thousands of medium to full power loads.

The sloppiest bunch of reloaders I have been around are SASS shooters that think that lighter loads will help them. Many have very little, any(?), understanding of what they are doing or of the few ways to do that safely.  Long ago I got to watch way too many SASS shooters punch bullets out of the bores of their guns, even got to stand by while one guy managed to blow up his revolver. I don't need that, nor does anyone else.

I am sure that you are convienced that your loads are "best" for you. Perhaps you are right, perhaps not. I suspect not, certainly not based on sheer numerical probability. I hope you never have one of those underloaded rounds stick a bullet in the bore. This thread started on the basis of safely selecting safe loads. There is a broad, safe highway on which to do that. Riding on the edge of the road generally leads to bumps, some small, some very bad.

I did a little experiment some years ago with one of my revolvers. I kept decreasing the powder charge and had a friend time me for 5 aimed shots, with the amount of powder in the load being the only vaiable. Know what, below a certain level, the reduced recoil did not result in any measurable decrease in times. There was very little difference in times between full SAAMI 44-40 loads and ones with much less powder. There was a lot of difference in performance of the ammo. I am confident that practice and perhaps change in grips would have yielded better results. I know that better trigger pulls (NOT by swapping springs!) will do it.

For folks with physical problems -- I am one, I had to switch shooting revolvers to the formerly "weak" hand -- lighter loads can be a real benefit. Those folks are far better served by buying smaller caliber revolvers, or buying reliable reduced large caliber loads, such as the Ten-X Outlaw 45 Colt ammo. Or taking the time to learn how to loads highly safe and effect reduced power ammo.

We may never come to an agreement on this topic. May you and Stump forever be happy with our underloads, and unharmed by them.

Lars

[Stump Water]

I am sure that you are convienced that your loads are "best" for you. Perhaps you are right, perhaps not. I suspect not, certainly not based on sheer numerical probability.

Sorry Lars.  You suspect wrong. 

Or taking the time to learn how to load highly safe and effect[ive] reduced power ammo.

That's what we did... as I've already said.  You should try to embrace the fact that you're not the only person that knows his way around a reloading bench.

May you and Stump forever be happy with our underloads, and unharmed by them.

Thanks.   But I'm more likely to be harmed running the timer for some chest-thumpin' he-man shooting "full house" loads.


I'm done.

[Marshal Halloway]

Howdy folks!

What is important to remember is that we all have our own personal preferences which include the definition of fun within the sport. To challenge personal preferences within a thread about min and max reloads or any other thread, makes it difficult to stay on topic.

When it comes to CAS reloading, my experience is that the main challenge started the day when SASS removed the 650 fps rule and powder manufacturers had to meet that challenge both in terms of safety and the competition towards the market.

Several members of the Wild Bunch (The SASS board) are painfully aware of this and also how it splits the sport into what we can call preference groups and to some extent how it triggers some excercised finger pointing between them. To undo this, is not something that can be done from one day to the next. It is way too complicated and involves so many, not just between organizations but within the organizations.

We can continue to blame the organizations and we can continue to attack preferences that is not to our liking, but when it comes to reloading, it is our personal responsebility to be safe.

I reload the "easy way" by staying within min and max data provided by the manufacturers. I never give out data in public forums which is not within that range.

Some like to have fun using light loads or heavy loads. The majority of us adjust to what is accepted within our sport, but light loads have become a standard.

The ones that should discuss this, is the rule makers in the organizations and powder manufacturers and especially how this may force reloaders and shooters to experiment more out of the pressure from the competition than the pressure in the chamber.

[Birdshot]

How about some thoughts from a ballistician who has a lab at his disposal?

1) There is no hard and fast way for anyone to predict exactly how a specific load will act in YOUR firearm.  We do our load development in a standardized barrel with standardized MINIMUM chamber, throat and bore.  We know that YOUR chamber. bore and throat are not going to give the same results. 

2) Data supplied from a lab is nothing more than a report of what happened with one component set in one barrel in one set of conditions on one specific day.  If we repeat the exact same test and change ANY variable, we will get a different answer.

3) A LARGE percentage of SASS/CAS shooters are new to the world of shooting and to reloading.  A new reloader should always learn to load on a single stage press and should always follow the published loads. 

4) Experienced loaders and shooters ( those who have worked with variations in components and conditions) MAY be able to get away with developing their own data.  Developing data in a center fire rifle cartridge is pretty easy.  Dealing with the very fast burning powders used in shotgun shells and handgun rounds can have devastating results.

5) The first reeliable sign of high pressure in a revolver load is when the firearm fails .  Bad news for the shooter and all of those around him.  Anyone who will tell you they can "read" primers and case expansion in pistol cartridges to tell the pressure is a danger and should be avoided.  It cannot be done reliably.

6) AS noted above, the tendency of SASS/CAS shooters to load ultralight loads is stupid.  The average shooter will not benefit from this.  More energy spent training would be a far better investment for most shooters than trying to find the absolute lightest load.

7) A load that you have worked down to today may be great but it may well be a hazard when the ambient temperature drops.  Primers are not as potent in the cold, the elasticity and plasticity of the case and primer change with the temperature.  All handgun/shotgun powders will change ignition and burn characteristics as the temperature changes: some much more than others.

You, the loader, are legally responsible for damage or injuries caused by your ammunition.  Never give or sell your ammo to another shooter unless you are a licensed ammunition manufacturer with the BATF.  Not only are you liable for injury but if you sell ammo without the license, you may serve time in the big house.

9)  Loading your own ammo should be a safe and rewarding experience.  Why go out of your way to make it difficult or dangerous.  Use the loads supplied by a laboratory and have confidence that you have the best custom ammo around.

10)  As far as not allowing loads to be posted on web sites goes, it will become more common.  Most web sites are offered by good people with good intentions.  Look at the owners of this site.  BUT, they have other lives and are not prepared to review every load posted to make certain that no decimal is misplaced or that a crank has not knowingly placed a dangerous load on the site.

11) REMEMBER - IN THE REAL WORLD, THERE ARE VERY FEW EXPERTS ON LOAD DATA.  THERE ARE CERTAINLY MORE EXPERIENCED PEOPLE AND LESS EXPERIENCED PEOPLE BUT FEW EXPERTS.  ON THE INTERNET, WHERE PEOPLE CAN HIDE IN ANONIMITY, THERE ARE LOTS AND LOTS OF FOLKS WHO WILL GIVE THEIR OPINION AS FACT.

OK, OFF MY SOAPBOX,

BIRDSHOT

[Lars]

7) A load that you have worked down to today may be great but it may well be a hazard when the ambient temperature drops.  Primers are not as potent in the cold, the elasticity and plasticity of the case and primer change with the temperature.  All handgun/shotgun powders will change ignition and burn characteristics as the temperature changes: some much more than others.

Of all the valuable, essential really, things listed by Birdshot, I would like to emphasize #7. Every fall we see folks having problems with those "wonderfully light loads" they been using happily all summer. We hear funny "bangs", really "pops", we see bullets gracefully arching toward the target, we hear cries of "STOP SQUIB!!!", we see folks seeking a range rod to bang a stuck bullet out of the bore. Hopefully, it never gets worse than that.

And it is all so totally unnecessary!!!!!!!

Lars

[Marshal Halloway]

Birdshot,

Thank you for your comments. For those that don't know, Birdshot works for Hodgdon Powder Co and has been heavily involved in developing loads for cowboy & western action shooters for years.

I asked him for some general comments to this thread as viewed from a ballistician.

[BlackHawkPaul]

Marshal and Birdshot- There is great wisdom in your observations. I have enjoyed reloading for 35 years. I never go for the hottest nor the lightest loads, only those within parameters of the powder manufacturers recommendations. There is sure a lot of enjoyment to be had in talking about technique and all of the bells and whistles that go with reloading like crimps, lubes, powder characteristics, etc. I am glad there are forums where reloaders can still talk technique and favorite safe pet loads. Thanks.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I agree with BlackHawkPaul. Great information, Birdshot, Marshal. Thanks.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

Thanks for taking the time to post, Birdshot. The ins and outs of loading ammo are always a learning curve. There's always some twist or turn that's new or unexpected. It's always more than wise to stay within the listed parameters. In working with the new TrailBoss, I've found that I've had to change some habits as the characteristice of this powder behave somewhat different than the others I've been using. So, I've had to learn new things, changes in the loads are different, IE: it behaves differently. What worked with the others didn't necessarily work with the TB. Once learned, I've had good results, however.............Buck

[Lars]

Aside from paying careful attention to information from the powder makers and their ballisticions, many of us have formed special interest groups that pool our knowledge and funds and send selected loads to an independent ballistics lab for measurements of chamber pressure and muzzle velocity. We do this because there are certain areas where the USA powder makers supply few suitable data, for example, for reliable lower pressure 16X65 and 16X70 ammo having chamber pressures in the 6.000 psi to 10.000 psi range, with normal muzzle velocities of 1100-1300 fps. We shoot these ammos in delightfully balanced old doubles.

One learns a lot as a member of such a group, be one a newbie or someone that has been reloading extensively and without adverse incident for decades and decades. It is also a means of keeping abreast of the incessent changes in loading components and their effects on our loads.

I am a bit surprised that no such group has formed for development of safe down-loaded, nitro-powder ammo for 45 Colt, 44 Mag/44 Special,, etc., given the rampant proclivity of SASS shooters to load below powder maker's minimums. The Ten-X Outlaw-II 45 Colt ammo is an excellent example of such ammo.

Lars

[robertbank]

Seems to me as a newbie looking at CASS but as a reloader for more years than I can remember, CASS ought to be looking at setting the Power Factor to a level where everyone must load to at least minimum velocity level.  OTherwise you might as well allow B B guns.  Somebody is going to get hurt if they have not already.

STay Safe

[Ed Clintwood]

I have to agree that there should be a minimum load level.  In IPSC it had to be factory or better.  I'm not saying that all loads should be factory, but 700 fps or better for the .45 LC would work for me.  I'd hate to see this sport turn into the baloon pop type thing of the '50's.  If we are tyring to "play cowboy" we ought to at least use equivalent loads.  My two cents