1873 Winchester: accurate 357 rifle load w/rimrock 158g rnfp?

[JeffinTD]

So I just got interested in this sport and have New Vaqueros and one of the new 1873 rifles by Winchester.

I've got some Rimrock hard cast 158gr bullets, and tried a range of Trail Boss loads.  3.2 grains produced good accuracy out of the revolvers and very consistent velocity, but accuracy was quite poor out of the rifle with charges ranging from 2.7 to 4.2.

The barrel is not leading.

The only other rounds I've fired from the rifle were factory Remington FMJ 38 special, which group pretty well.

I was going to try making sure there is no trace of copper fouling in the barrel, and try again.  I also loaded some RimRock bullets with Universal to see if the rifle likes that better.

Anybody have any other ideas?  Anybody have a load for the Rimrock 158g bullet that is accurate in both rifle and pistol they would like to share?

[Will Lynchem]

Try staying to the upper end of the scale with the 357's. That said, if you are using New vaqueros and a 73, might I suggest switching to 38 specials. I use both guns and have found great reliability and accuracy using the same cartridge and load in both my New Vaqueros and my 73 with no jam or loading issues. I personally have found that a 125 grain bullet loaded with 4.4 to 4.6 of IMR Trail Boss works great for both sets of guns as well as having the knock down power for shooting Wild Bunch matches with the rifle. A 1cc dipper is a perfect 4.6 gns of trail boss if you need to reload while you are out and about.  It is easy and reliable and runs middle of the scale seeing that IMR recommends 3.8 to 5.2 gns for a 125 gn bullet.  What ever you choose,  stay within the manufacturer suggested load specs and happy / safe shooting!  W. L.

[JeffinTD]

Thanks for the reply. I was planning on using 357 brass mainly because I ran into bulk brass at a really good price, but also I felt it would help keep the chambers clean.  

A friend thinks it might be an issue with bullet lube but I would expect it to lead if that were the case.

The rifle has a 18.75 twist rate, and I'm wondering if it will stabalize a 158 grain bullet at lower velocities.

I might also try 2400 or some other slower burning powder, but I was also wondering if a lighter bullet at higher velocity might work better with that twist.

I may have to get some 125 grain bullets and try your load.

Once I have something that works I'll likely tool up a Dillon.

[Will Lynchem]

 I always keep 100 rounds of 357s in my ammo box just in case I need the knock down power for some of the larger steel targets. But more and more,  I'm finding that a 38 special with the same amount of Trail Boss and a 158 gn RNFP, has the same amount of knock down punch but without the recoil of a 357. I also found that if you clean your guns on a regular basis,  you will avoid any lead build up that might keep you from using 357s when needed. Either way,  good luck on your venture into CAS and let us know how it goes!  W. L.      

[Litl Red]

I always keep 100 rounds of 357s in my ammo box just in case I need the knock down power for some of the larger steel targets. But more and more,  I'm finding that a 38 special with the same amount of Trail Boss and a 158 gn RNFP, has the same amount of knock down punch but without the recoil of a 357. I also found that if you clean your guns on a regular basis,  you will avoid any lead build up that might keep you from using 357s when needed. Either way,  good luck on your venture into CAS and let us know how it goes!  W. L.      

Will, internal capacity has an effect on the velocity (power) a set amount of powder will produce behind a set bullet weight.  That's why reloaders who're trying for accuracy sort brass by brand and sometimes sort the brand by weight.

Looking through the Lyman 49th Edition for examples showed when one powder was used under a Lyman 160(L) RN it gave 800fps in a 38Spl case, but gave a lot less fps in 357 case.  It took 1.5 grain more of that one powder to get 800fps in the 357 under that same bullet.    There aren't too many examples because most mfg's data is based on the usual powders for 38 and the usual powders for 357, and they aren't usually the same speed powders.

There was one other example in the Lyman data I noticed.  It was for Lyman's 155(L) #358156 SWC and at "knockdown" load pressures.  They showed data for a +P speed of 950fps using 2400 for the 38Spl case.  The starting load for 2400 in the 357 gave 1000fps which is pretty close to 950, but it took 1.8 grain more of 2400 to produce about the same velocity. 

So if you load your 357 hulls with a 38Spl recipe, the result is less velocity.  That's the reason for less recoil.  But it really can't give the same knock down punch.       

Needless to say, it really isn't safe to load "a 38 special with the same amount of Trail Boss and 158 gn RNFP" as recommended in 357 charts. 

[Will Lynchem]

I realize that there are always those whom will quote "scripture" from books to try and demean those with whom they disagree with.
That said, if you would go back and read what I stated, you will find thai I never once mentioned what I was using in my 357 magnums for a powder or charge. I only stated that I "keep a box of 357s in my ammo box" truth be known,  I don't even use Trail boss in my 357s. I have found the reloading books like Lyman are only good for a reference.  As fast as the industry changes, I stick to what the manufacturer of the type of powder I'm using recommends that I use. With the type of bullets I use for my 357s, Hodgdon does not even recommend using Trail Boss. What I was referring to was the difference between a 125 gn bullet and a 158 gn bullet in a 38 special casing.  To give credit where creditis due, I could have clarified that in my 38s with a 158 gn bullet, I stick to the upper end of the scale and run 3.8 to 4.0 of trail boss to achieve a good knock down punch with much less recoil than a 357 magnum.
Point of all this being, before jumping to conclusions, one should always ask for clarification before quoting scripture.  JMHO.  W.L.

[JeffinTD]

Getting back to my rifle...

I've tried factory jacketed 38 spl, which gave OK accuracy, but not nearly as good as I would expect.

Rimrock 158 fp rn in 38 spl brass with 2.7, 3.2, 3.7 and 4.2 grains of Trail Boss- all shoot more of a pattern at 25 yards than a group.

Lasercast 158 SWC loaded with Bullseye in 38 spl brass did no better.

Neither did Griener 158 SWC with Bullseye in 38 cases.

I also tried the 158 Rimrock bullets with Trailboss, Universal Clays and 2400 in 357 cases.  None shot well, though the load with 2400 shot better.

I had a friend who competes in rifle matches shoot it too, so it isn't just my "not what they used to be" eyes.

Unless anyone can think of anything else, I guess I'll try 125 cast bullets.  

Otherwise I'm wondering if something is up with this particular rifle.  From what I've read, these Winchester/Miroku rifles should shoot into 2-3 inches at 100 yards with most factory ammo.  A good load with mine will stay on paper at 25 yards, and I'm getting frustrated with it.

[Litl Red]

I realize that there are always those whom will quote "scripture" from books to try and demean those with whom they disagree with.
That said, if you would go back and read what I stated, you will find thai I never once mentioned what I was using in my 357 magnums for a powder or charge. I only stated that I "keep a box of 357s in my ammo box" truth be known,  I don't even use Trail boss in my 357s. I have found the reloading books like Lyman are only good for a reference.  As fast as the industry changes, I stick to what the manufacturer of the type of powder I'm using recommends that I use. With the type of bullets I use for my 357s, Hodgdon does not even recommend using Trail Boss. What I was referring to was the difference between a 125 gn bullet and a 158 gn bullet in a 38 special casing.  To give credit where creditis due, I could have clarified that in my 38s with a 158 gn bullet, I stick to the upper end of the scale and run 3.8 to 4.0 of trail boss to achieve a good knock down punch with much less recoil than a 357 magnum.
Point of all this being, before jumping to conclusions, one should always ask for clarification before quoting scripture.  JMHO.  W.L.

Sorry you think you were demeaned by scripture, but "I'm finding that a 38 special with the same amount of Trail Boss and a 158 gn RNFP, has the same amount of knock down punch but without the recoil of a 357."     is very easily interpreted as saying a 38 with the same amount of TB has the knock down punch of a 357.   "Same amount of TB" and punch as what?  as a 357.

Really wasn't jumping to conclusions, just reading the "written word".     

[Will Lynchem]

Jeffin TD, A couple of things to keep in mind when shooting CAS. First is that it may take a bit of experimenting with different loads and bullets to find works best for your guns. Every gun is different even if they are the same make and model. Second, don't get overly obsesed on getting a really tight group at 25 yards. CAS is a game of speed and finesse.  You are shooting targets that are 18 x 18 inches from 3 to seven yards at most. Your wins or losses will come more from time lost in transitioning from one gun to another and your techniques than an occasional missed target. Now not missing the targets is important but when it comes down to your guns accuracy,  at these distances,  its been said that if you could figure out how to load and fire a flintlock as fast as a single action pistol, you could most likely win your share of matches anyway.
I'm at this time being mentored by some of the best shooters in the business.  They all have won there share of state, regional and world championships and all agree on one thing. The more dry firing you do at home, the more you practice your gun handling in and out of the holsters and switching from one to another, the more you practice moving your eyes first to the next target and letting your gun follow, the better you will be CAS.  Keep in mind, punching a hole in a paper target at 600 yards is about accuracy. CAS is all about speed and finesse.  Start slow, hit your targets, with lots of dry firing and practice at home, your speed will pick up.
Here's wishing you the best of luck in what has to be the most fun you will ever have with your clothes on. Keep us posted on how the progress goes.   Sincerely,  Will Lynchem.

[JeffinTD]

Thank you for that reply.

Yeah shooting 5"+ groups at 25 yards would probably get by in CAS, but I really expected this expensive rifle to be capable of better than that. I could likely out group the rifle with the Vaquero if fired from sandbags.

I'll continue to experiment with loads, but I've run different bullets, different charges with powders ranging from  very fast burning to slow burning, in 38 special cases,  and in 357.

It shoots like the rear sight is loose and flopping around, but it isn't.  

I think the next step will be to run a scope down the bore. It sure looks fine with a bore light, but as long as it is it is tough to see the breech end.

[Will Lynchem]

That might be a good idea. Maybe have a good gun smith take a look at it. Who is the maufacture of the rifle? When I bought my Uberti model 73 it shot 2 inch groups at 100 yards using a bench rest right out of the box using a bench rest. That was with both 357s and 38 special reloads. Try documenting the different kinds of loads used and save the targets. If you can't do any better than that at 25 yards, contact or send the gun back and have the manufacturer test fire it and fix the problem.  If it is new, its under warranty.  Good luck, W. L.

[JeffinTD]

This is the Winchester brand gun (built for them by Miroku) 24" octogon with color case hardened reciever.

Bought new in the box.

I think scoping the bore (buddy has a bore scope) and maybe having a gunsmith look at it are the next steps.

I'll be careful about having any smithing done, in case I have to send the rifle back to Winchester.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Though different rifles shoot better with different loads, this thing shoots very poorly with a side range of loads.

[Litl Red]

Jeff,
  For a rifle to shoot horribly takes some doing.   A couple of problems are known to be causes however.  

The muzzle is one thing to look at.  The crowning step seems to be a manufacturing process that allows flaws every so often.  In 55+ years of gun buying, a bunch of brand new ones turned out to be improved by re-crowning.  Only one or two shot as badly as you describe.   The muzzles in almost all of those cases were not perpendicular.  A couple had flaws.  Two recent purchases had what looked like manufacturing damage just inside the muzzle in the bore.    A muzzle inspection would not only check for square.  Look for nicks and flashing.  And look inside for damage.

Cast bullets can be internally flawed.  Internal cavities are the problem.  Lots of casters sort by weight with a side benefit of identifying and rejecting slugs with hidden flaws.   I've done exactly that, plus have tested those rejects to see just how badly they affect grouping.   It turns out that testing can deceive you.   The cavities can be anywhere inside.  The first test I ever did showed grouping that was as good as groups from good bullets.   A couple of years later, when trying the same sort of testing of a different mould, the test groups showed something different.    About half the flawed bullets hit just as close to POA as good bullets.   The majority of the rest were maybe double the group size.  Then there were obvious flyers.  No doubt about them.   Cavities destabilize more the farther they are from the centerline of the bullet.  So some bullets with cavities stabilize ok, others won't.     Weight checking commercial cast can be an eye opener.  It can also reassure you that you're getting good value.  

Cartridge fit and bullet fit can give you fits.

Very seldom does stability cause anyone problems, but I've got one lever rifle that punches lopsided holes in paper when heavy bullets are shot out of it at "cowboy" velocities.   Magnum velocities from magnum powder charges punch 90% of the holes clean and round and the rest showing only very slight wobble.  And group size about normal.    The pistols of matching caliber to that rifle shoot those unstable loads even worse.   Of course, they have the same twist, something that can be questioned.  

There really are lots of things that can cause less accuracy, but most of them seldom cause wild inaccuracy by themselves.  That's not to say your rifle doesn't have more than one problem with your present ammo.            

[JeffinTD]

Yeah I'm at a loss here. I've tried 3 brands of commercial cast bullets known for quality and my issue isn't just a rare flier in an otherwise tight group.

Looking closely at the crown job with a magnifying hood, it looks pretty close to perfect.

I just came back from a friends house where we used his bore scope. Rifling is crisp and well machined, quite clean with no sign of fowling. We did see 3 pits that appeared shallow with smooth edges in the middle of one land. This was probably 10" from the muzzle, and we both felt this was inconsequential and would not explain the lack of accuracy the rifle displays. The scope won't reach to the breech and I didn't take the action apart, however what can be seen of the chamber is clean and well machined.

This friend is quite into accurate rifles (as you might guess by him having a bore scope) but  both of us have experience with cast bullets in handguns and not rifles.

I think I'll try hand loads in the 125 grain range in both cast and jacketed, but if there is no improvement I think I might be sending the gun to Winchester.   If I had a modern rifle that shot like this, I'd expect to find the rings or scope base had come loose. This one really has me at a loss. 

[Litl Red]

Figuring out some can be worse than trying to figure out women. 

Have you measured fired cases?   or slugged the barrel?    One of my 32-20s threw cases that all had a bulge and the measurement showed the chamber was oversize.  It wasn't what you'd call accurate, but wasn't in a class with yours or shotguns.   BTW, the bulge indicates just how misaligned the cartridge is at ignition.   Starting the bullet at an angle can create an angled base.   

What twist do they say is in that rifle?  Trying the lighter bullets should prove the twist however.  Shorter bullets require less twist.  And it's not real easy to shoot lighter slower to stay in the same stability range.   

It'll be most interesting to see what the factory does. 

[JeffinTD]

It's an 18.75 twist. Of the reviews I've read it should shoot a variety of 38 and 357 loads into 3" at 100, with loads it likes doing better than that.

Good idea about looking at the cases. Nothing visually out of whack, but I'll bust out the micrometer. Unfortunately I didn't keep track of what empties were fired in the rifle vs the revolvers. 

I'm not sure about slugging the chamber- as it might be better to just send it to Winchester. From what I've read their service dept takes pretty good care of customers.

I am thinking about taking the action apart to remove the bolt, however, so I could get a better look at the chamber and first part of the rifling.

[JeffinTD]

So it dawned on me that everything shot yesterday was in 357 cases except for a 5 shot group done in factory loaded 38 special, so I do have some cases I know came from the rifle.

Close to the rim they seem to measure .3780 to .3785. (Assuming I remembered how to use a micrometer properly- been a while).

There's no bulges or odd marks on the cases that I can see.

I have some 125gr Speer jhp laying around I think I used to use to fire form 357 Herritt. I may load some as an experiment.

[Will Lynchem]

If you have shot that many different kinds of bullets thru it including factory ammo, then it more than likely is a manufacturer defect or production problem.  Before you have a gunsmith start dinking with it I would strongly suggest you contact the manufacturer and make sure you are not voiding any warranty.  You just might end up owning a rifle that will never shoot straight and that can be a quite an expensive lesson. Just a thought. W. L.

[Litl Red]

Sorry I forgot to mention...

Look closely at the bullet holes in all that paper you're punching.  Look for holes that aren't round or with more grease on one side of the hole than the other. 

Got any pictures of those targets?   

[JeffinTD]

Yeah I think you are right. The next step should be a call to Winchester, and probably sending them the rifle. The holes it punches seem pretty normal. Nothing key holed or shows signs of yawing. I'll try to upload some photos when I get a chance.