Shotguns Shells Creasing

Sgt. John McAfferty · February 13, 2015, 11:56:35 AM

Howdy all,

I just started reloading BP on a Lee LoadAll II. Never reloaded shotgun shells before.

I'm using 2f black powder, a claybuster wad and 1oz. of shot.

The problem is, when I load the powder, put the wad in and drop the shot, I have to push it down to get enough of the top of the round to crimp.

Generally what happens is I get folds or creases in the side of the shell.

What am I doing wrong?

Do I need to take a dowel and compress the BP before I place the wad in?

Any advice is appreciated.

I can't give you my load data here, but will be glad to IM it to anyone who can help.

Sgt. John

hellgate · February 13, 2015, 12:08:04 PM

You either need a roomier case (I like the Remington compression formed cases with tapered walls [STS the best]) or a shorter wad. If you can, cut the "legs" out of the wad so you have a shot cup and over powder wad. You can use the AA white or red wads and get 3 different heights of wads with a box cutter:
-Cut all the legs/struts out from between the shot cup and over powder wad part for the shortest wad if you want more shot or powder
-cut transversely across the legs, then rotate the wad 90 degrees and push it back together for a medium length wad
- leave the wad as is for the tallest wad.

The WW AA red wad is the shortest and may need no modification. I shoot a fairly light load of 50grs FFg and 7/8 oz shot in a Remington hull for 90% of my CAS shooting with a white AA wad. For a big knockdown I'll use just the shot cup & OP wad using 75-80 grs powder and 1 1/8oz shot if it absolutely, positively, has to go down.

Pettifogger · February 13, 2015, 12:42:37 PM

+1 to what Hellgate said. Your shot column is to long. Winchester doesn't make the Red anymore, although Claybusters still makes a version of it. And, you really don't need the 80 grains people use to use in them. For cowboy shooting I use the Winchester (or Claybusters equivalent) orange wad. Use about 50 grains (by volume) of powder and one ounce of shot and it fits in the Remington STS hull just fine. Also works well in the Winchester AA hulls.

Sgt. John McAfferty · February 13, 2015, 12:45:34 PM

Thank you both. I will try it tonight when I get home.

Sgt. John

Roosterman · February 13, 2015, 04:29:23 PM

Ditch the shot plastic shot cup, you don't need it. Just put in a card over the powder then load your shot.

hellgate · February 13, 2015, 05:48:12 PM

I prefer a plastic over powder gas sealing wad in any tapered walled hull like the old AA hulls and the current Remington cases. If you use a card wad over the powder it gets "squinched" down by the taper of the hull and you don't get as good of a gas seal because the card cannot swell outward to seal the chamber as the case wall thins toward the mouth. Also a plastic shot cup prevents ironing out of the crimp which helps in shucking out the hull. Whenever I don't use a plastic scot cup or Kwik-Sert to protect the mouth of the hull I have to pull out the hull rather than it falling out of its own weight. Just a thick card wad will work but you'll get some blowby and loss of power which at our ranges probably is not consequential. If we were shooting championship trap it would be a problem.

Coffinmaker · February 13, 2015, 08:50:08 PM

Ah well, not really an answer to your specific problem with modern cases, but the "other" solution is to switch to all brass hulls and a square load. Problem solved.

Coffinmaker

Blackpowder Burn · February 14, 2015, 07:29:22 AM

When I load plastic hulls (mostly brass these days) I use the Claybuster 1138 wad with 65 grains of FFg and 1 oz of shot. Works great.

Roosterman · February 14, 2015, 07:37:11 AM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on February 13, 2015, 08:50:08 PM
Ah well, not really an answer to your specific problem with modern cases, but the "other" solution is to switch to all brass hulls and a square load. Problem solved.

Coffinmaker

Yep, I use brass too.

rifle · February 14, 2015, 08:55:38 AM

When you use the brass do you get a good gas seal? What type wads? Over powder card then the fiber cushion wad then the over shot card?

When I load black powder fer the old shotguns I use 70gr. FFFg to conserve space and then end up with a little more then 1 1/8th oz.shot No.6. I still have the Winchester red wads to use.

When I want 90gr. FFFg I cut the cushion part of the red wad off. Probably loose some gas but.......what is a Hombre to do?

I have some white wads(fergit the brand) that open up right away and float down like a parachute.

Anywhoooo...Sgt. John might get just enough room to crimp if using FFFg powder since it takes less of it to get the same power. Shotguns like fast powder anyway. Usin Fg or FFg in a muzzleloader shotgun is good but FFFg in a shotgun cartridge shell works well.

Dick Dastardly · February 14, 2015, 09:40:19 AM

Work it backwards. Take a hull and drop in the amount of shot you want. Then follow with the wad you have. Now, put in enough powder to give you a nice neat crimp. Ok, now measure the amount of powder. That's your load.

DD-MDA

P.S. My loads have black powder, over powder 1/8" card, lubed fiber wad, shot, over shot card, roll crimp. I load 20ga, 16ga, 12ga and 10ga that way. All boom, flame and smoke just fine. KDs drop promptly.

hellgate · February 14, 2015, 12:00:00 PM

Brass hulls are thinner than plastic hulls and to get a better gas seal you'd be best to use larger diameter card & fiber wads. Go to circlefly.com to buy 11 guage wads for brass 12ga hulls. Also don't shoot heavy (high pressure) loads in them or else the brass walls swell and the hulls don't fall out as easily.

Blackpowder Burn · February 14, 2015, 06:17:38 PM

I use Magtech hulls, load 65 grains FFg BP, 11 gauge over powder wad, 1/2" cushion wad, 1-1/8 oz shot and 10 gauge overshot wad. Seal with a hot glue gun. Very authoritative on shotgun knockdowns from my old 1889 Remington.

I get all my stuff from Ballistic products.

Coffinmaker · February 14, 2015, 08:28:06 PM

This may sound strange, but I don't have a clue what my load is, technically. But, it is a "square load." I use an adjustable scoop set to the minimum. Dump in that amount of 2f APP, 1/8" over powder card, 1/2" lubed cushion, over shot card, dump in the like amount of shot, top it off with three over shot cards. No glue. The all brass rounds work a treat I'm my Doubles. Take down any popper I hit fair.

Coffinmaker

Roosterman · February 15, 2015, 07:28:51 AM

Quote from: Blackpowder Burn on February 14, 2015, 06:17:38 PM
I use Magtech hulls, load 65 grains FFg BP, 11 gauge over powder wad, 1/2" cushion wad, 1-1/8 oz shot and 10 gauge overshot wad. Seal with a hot glue gun. Very authoritative on shotgun knockdowns from my old 1889 Remington.

I get all my stuff from Ballistic products.

That's about what I do. I use 70gr powder , 1 oz. shot. I also melt some wax or bullet lube and use one of those cotton daubers dunked in the melted lube to slop some lube over the over shot card and inside the shell. Even using 10ga cards I couldn't keep the top card in, but with the melted lube it works like a charm.
BTW, you can load these brass shells way up if you want to, never tried it but I'm guessing you could "square load" to 1 5/8oz or more. Very versatile shells and they shuck great.

rifle · February 15, 2015, 09:31:05 AM

Do the brass shells need full length sized when reloading them?

DD, any problems with the roll crimp thing?

Blackpowder Burn · February 15, 2015, 07:45:55 PM

I never have to resize the brass hulls. I have a set of RCBS dies for them, but the sizer portion is larger than the hull, even after firing - never even touches it. I do use the die to put a small roll crimp on the end of the hull to make chambering easier.

Roosterman · February 16, 2015, 07:48:33 AM

Quote from: rifle on February 15, 2015, 09:31:05 AM
Do the brass shells need full length sized when reloading them?

DD, any problems with the roll crimp thing?

Never resized or roll crimped.

Dick Dastardly · February 16, 2015, 09:30:08 AM

Roll crimping is very easy to do. You can put the tool in a drill motor and spin the roll crimp down. A simple bench clamp can hold your shot shell steady and straight. I use a MEC Supersizer to hang on to my shell and a bench top drill press to spin the crimp down. The roll crimp is the oldest kind of crimp and looks period correct great. Also, the roll crimp holds better than a pie crimp, especially on fired empties. The more times a shell is fired and pie crimped the weaker the crimp becomes. Roll crimping holds tighter for more loadings per hull. Also, when the case mouth starts to fail, the shell can be trimmed and reloaded with a roll crimp again and again. For my 16ga hulls this is important because I can't pick up many once fired hulls from the discard containers at the match or the trap club. I have to make my 16ga hulls last and last. Also, my 10ga hulls are fairly rare and expensive. They really need to be reclaimed and reloaded many times.

DD-MDA

rifle · February 16, 2015, 09:46:39 AM

Thanks fer the reply Hombre. All of ya. Appreciate it. Was hoping to see some kind of replies.

DD.....what do you mean by "bench clamp" to hold the shell? The Mec Supersizer is a whole loading press right?

I'd like to get some brass fer a hammer double in 16gauge. It's smokeless compatible far as I know but.....I want to load the black. It's an FN shotgun with Russian words on it. Made after WW1 far as I know. Like an antique that isn't really really old. I think it was made by FN or with all the parts from FN. Great shape and solid. There was an article in NRA RifleMan magazine about them. A picture in there has one like I have. The mag was October 2013.

Good to know RCBS has some dies. I didn't want to buy a whole 16ga. shotgun shell reloader fer just one shotgun. The FN shotguns with the hammers are not real prolific. Only a coupla thousand made with the hammers. Really well made.

Now if I can find the brass in 16ga. and get some of the RCBS dies.

Thanks again.