Uberti 1862 Pocket Barrels

Ike Kant · February 06, 2015, 01:41:38 PM

I hear what he is saying but that (deluxe kits) is not in fact the manner in which A. Uberti percussion revolvers are advertised and marketed.

BTW, I wrote that polite but stern letter both email and hard copy to A. Uberti c/o Stoeger Industries for all the good it will do. I will at least have the satisfaction of expressing my dissatisfaction.

Ike Kant · February 06, 2015, 06:48:19 PM

This afternoon I fitted the TOTW large nipples but they were still a very lousy fit so I didn't use them in the test. I then fitted Slix-Shot nipples to the police model and tried loads with .7cc and 1cc of APP and 15gr of Goex fffg. Every cylinder had at least two cap jams. Some jammed more.

So I wasted another afternoon. On top of everything else I dropped and ruined my Dillon dial caliper. The next owner of these guns who has shop tools and experience with this sort of thing could surely make the 4.5" Police used in the tests and the unfired 5.5" Navy work. Or they could send them off to Lee's Gunsmithing and have cap guards installed. Look for them in the classified section in the next week or so. Bartender! I'll take that rye whiskey providin' it gets here quick.

Lefty Dude · February 07, 2015, 12:14:34 AM

The Hammer slot must be changed from a straight slot to a slight V, and the face polished. Or--------- it will suck caps till the cows come home.

BTW; I got your E-mail.

Ike Kant · February 07, 2015, 01:35:29 PM

LD: I admire your tenacity. I broke the arris on the slot with small files and polished the face before shooting. Perhaps I didn't go far enough with the files. That's something else to try I reckon. I hate to take no for an answer from these stubborn lumps. Deb wants me to send them off to get cap guards. The converted pair of '62's she once had worked fine for her in Plainsman events. But that's another $300 that could be spent on other more cooperative toys.

What did you think of the letter?

Lefty Dude · February 07, 2015, 07:37:43 PM

Tried the file myself, would not fix the problem. With the roto-tool & taper stone you want the V deep enough so the cylinder pins just holds and will not rotate and jump out of the slot.

We compared caps fired in the stock Hammer to ones fired in the modified V slot Hammer. The stock fired capes were very pronounced with the slot groove. Where as the modified slot fired caps were well rounded and less pronounced with the Hammer slot imprint. Thus they wound not hold to the Hammer face, stick and jam or hold and not fire the next proceeding cap/ chamber as the stock Hammer will do.
Cap guards are not required when the piece is set up properly.
Stick with it Pard, you are almost there !

Lefty Dude · February 07, 2015, 07:44:21 PM

When we were testing at the Range, Lou Graham was there shooting. We had her run a cylinder as fast as she could. Four out of the Five caps were retained on the cones and had to be picked off with a Screwknife.

Lou Graham shoots Frontier Cartridge Ladies Gun Fighter. She loved the little 62's.

Ike Kant · February 07, 2015, 08:18:35 PM

Quote from: Lefty Dude on February 07, 2015, 07:37:43 PM
Tried the file myself, would not fix the problem. With the roto-tool & taper stone you want the V deep enough so the cylinder pins just holds and will not rotate and jump out of the slot.

May I please trouble you to further elaborate on this. Be as precise as you can. It could make the difference between two $300 pieces of junk metal and two cherished revolvers. I can just about see the finish line and hear the corks popping.

Lefty Dude · February 07, 2015, 11:39:29 PM

The slot has two sharp parallel sides. You want to V the slot, relieve or taper if you will the top of the slot sides. Not drastic, just enough to smooth the sharp edges. Then round the edge of each side. You can do this on the Revolver with the Hammer in full cock position. Checking as you go with the safety slot pin on the cylinder. If you go to far you will not have enough hold for the safety to work.
I use a small rotary taper cone stone in my Dremel. Speed setting as low as possible. Put the taper point in the slot and carefully work the slot from the bottom to the top. The bottom of the slot will be wider than the top.
Your purpose in doing this is to keep the sharp safety slot from retaining the soft copper cap. Newton's Law of motion is in effect here.
Hammer hits cap on firing, soft cap imprints Hammer slot on rebound of powder chamber burn. Cap sticks in sharp slot of hammer.

You will want to use Remington # 10 caps.

Ike Kant · February 08, 2015, 11:27:00 AM

Got it. I'm beginning to feel like there may be hope. I'll get the dremel stuff out today and carefully go to it. It may be a couple of days before the gun gets fired though. Remington #10s are my usual igniters so no problem there. I'd like to get to the point where I can at least trust them for a two-stage Plainsman side match. They will probably never equal the performance of my Uberti 1860s that were tuned and cap guard modified by Frank Leaman way back when. I won the Frontiersman category at the Hell on Wheels High Plains regional in 2001 and 2005 with them. Will keep you posted.

Lefty Dude · February 08, 2015, 01:49:32 PM

We did one and left the other of the pair stock. The comparison was dramatic. The stock piece would get one shot off, then jam. The modified Hammer slot piece only drop one cap in rotation, four were still on the cones.
Then we compared the spent caps. You could see the difference between the two spent caps. The modified spent cap had rounded Hammer slot impressions , where as the un-modified cap Hammer slot impressions were very defined and sharp.

I have an 1861 Navy that has the same treatment for the hammer Safety Slot. This piece also preforms, and is not a cap sucker.
All my other Colt 51's & 60's have the hammer slot tig-welded and faces polished.

Sorry all, if we Hi-jacked this thread. However, by the number of views on this thread, there must be some interest.

Roosterman · February 08, 2015, 05:32:43 PM

I found all of this very interesting. I have never had a problem with cap jams on any of my percussion revolvers. Just blessed I guess.

Navy Six · February 08, 2015, 06:43:41 PM

Lefty, is there any way you could post a picture of the modified slot?

Ike Kant · February 08, 2015, 07:59:53 PM

Quote from: Navy Six on February 08, 2015, 06:43:41 PM
Lefty, is there any way you could post a picture of the modified slot?

x2

Lefty Dude · February 08, 2015, 11:25:13 PM

The 62's are not mine, they belong to a Fellow CAS shooter. He and I did the research together. The Hammer slot modification was my idea.
If I had one I would gladly take a photo of the which you desire.
Let me see what I can do. I have a Camera that has a telescopic macro menu.

In my opinion a 61 Sheriff/Police is a better way to go.

rifle · February 12, 2015, 12:21:19 PM

I can see the "V" thing to the hammer safety notch working with the rounded edges and all. Makes sense.

I wonder if the "62"s" are dry fire safe? You know....hammer stops just short of the cone on the nipple and close enough to hit and ignite the cap. If the hammer doesn't crush the cap so hard since it can't reach far enough the "crush" stops short and imprints the "safety notch" of the hammer less to the cap right?

Well, can Lefty Dude let me know if the "62's" he's been shooting and testing have dry fire safe hammers? Less force put to the hammer crushing the cap?

If wanting to just do some shooting with a "62" before gunsmithin on it a person can go to RMC Muzzleloading and get a pack or two of the "Cap Guard" product #ML1084. Stick the little things on the nnips covering the end of the caps so to cover the end and the nip and go to shootin. Rem #10 caps preferably.

The caps stay on the nips and don't fall off. It really isn't the fault of the gun makers that this problem with caps happens. I believe the Cap Manufacturers skimp on copper and make the caps too thin. It born out using the lil cap guards that put but little pressure on the caps skirt but.......stop the fragmentation and the flaying out of the cqps so the caps stay on. All the caps stay on.

Blow back seems diminished too. That lil bit of support to the thin caps by a rubber band lookin thing around it makes all the difference.

Caps are too thin. Write a letter to the danged Cap Manufacturers and see if they have the will to make some "Cap&Ball" Revolver caps that work the right way. If they actually worked( as I suspect the caps of yesteryear did) they would boost their sales fer sure.

I posted before about the old CVA caps. They were thicker or harder and never came off the nips and never flayed or fragmented. Well on rare occaisons they may open up and get loose but I don't remember them comng off. They were tight and hard to get on. I'd use the hammer or a screw driver to seat them. They were tight going on but never split from forcing them on.

One thing about them. After they were fired they stuck on like they were glued to the nipples and really hard to get off. Too thick and hard maybe? Maybe a little thinner would have been better?

Anywhoooo....if I wanted to do a "fan the hammer" I would seat the CVA's on the nips and fan away with no problem.

I figure caps could be made that would function properly. Todays caps are not made properly. The guns aren't the whole problem.

Try a coupla packs of those "Cap Guards" from RMC and you'll see what I mean. Just a little support to the caps skirt makes all the difference. What if the cap itself had a little more support to the skirt?

Anywhoooo....I wonder if the hammers/caps of the "62's" would work a little better if they were "dry fire safe"?

Oh! I wouldn't know much about swapping barrels on the Pocket Pistols. Never did it. I like the long barrel on the "62" Police though.

Navy Six · February 12, 2015, 02:43:03 PM

I wonder if the "62"s" are dry fire safe? You know....hammer stops just short of the cone on the nipple and close enough to hit and ignite the cap. If the hammer doesn't crush the cap so hard since it can't reach far enough the "crush" stops short and imprints the "safety notch" of the hammer less to the cap right?

Rifle, I have been experimenting with several new Ubertis (four 51 Navies and two 2nd Model Dragoons) and operating under the assumptions you made above. The Navies have Slix Shot nipples and the Dragoons have Tresso nipples. Long story short, even when filling the hammer safety notches with JB weld,using Remington #10 caps and relatively light powder charges(Navies=18gr. FFF Goex, Dragoons=35gr. FF Goex), I was still getting the caps pulled off the nipples at times and stuck to the hammer. As I carefully filed/stoned the hammer back to where they were not quite touching the nipples(when the cylinder was held back against the recoil shield), the problems have about disappeared. Doing this to the hammer has still maintained 100% reliable ignition as I believe the thickness of the caps( as reported by Mako in previous posts) are about .035-.040 and the caps are not getting "crushed" as you mentioned. I guess maybe the caps today are a little different as I don't remember having this much difficulty 25 years ago when I first started playing with the cap guns.
Anyway, Lefty, I hope you can still post a picture of your modified hammer on the 62 Pocket. These guns are too much fun and I want to make them work, no matter what.

Lefty Dude · February 12, 2015, 02:44:58 PM

Not "Dry Fire Safe".

Ike Kant · February 12, 2015, 05:43:58 PM

I had a long phone conversation with Mike Brackett of Goons Gun Works in Marietta Georgia this morning. He does extensive tuning and installs a metal post to the frame that ostensibly prevents caps and fragments from falling into the hammer channel. I like what he told me so the '62s are on their way to his shop.

Jim Miller, Bill Longley, Harvey Logan, Wild Bill Hickock, Buffalo Bill Cody, Heck Thomas, Dallas Studenmire, Billy the Kid, Ben Thompson, Clay Allison, the Youngers, Doc Holliday, Pat Garret, Charles Gatewood, Frank Grouard, Yellowstone Kelly, Sam Bass, Baptiste Pourier, Elfago Baca, TR, the Clantons, Tom Horn, the Daltons, John Wesley Hardin, Joe Lefors, Nate Champion, Black Bart, Calamity Jane, Jim Bridger, Mitch Bouyer, Luke Short, Al Sieber, Jesse James, Annie Oakley, Nat Love, Turkey Creek Johnson, John Larn, Pearl Hart, Charles Goodnight, Oliver Loving, Cherokee Bill, Stagecoach Mary, Bill Tilghman, Bat Masterson and brothers, California Joe, Mysterious Dave Mather, Billy Dixon, John Ringo, Dave Rudabaugh, Luke Short, the Earp brothers, Sundance Kid and Butch Cassidy never had to rebuild their own new guns. So I came the happy conclusion that I don't need to either.

Lefty Dude · February 12, 2015, 11:09:39 PM

Let us know how they turn out.

Good Luck !

rifle · February 13, 2015, 08:43:11 AM

Venerable Navy Six,

You do the "dry fire safe hammer" thing a little different then I do. I don't hold the cylinder back all the way. I leave it all the way forward where it will be when the hammer hits the caps. Afterwards I test by dry firing. If there is any imprint of the nipple to the hammer I take it away and....a few .001's more.

You must be right on the "edge"of takin a little too much off the hammer. Must have tight cylinders fore and aft movement to save you from takin a little too much off. if it works it works though. Main thing considered and the job works well for you so,"job well done".

If you got Slix Shot nipples and did the "V" thing with the edges rounded over then you'd be hittin the problem from a coupla different trajectories.