Spencer Shooting Contest and Burnside Spencer Conversion to a Sporting Rifle

[hatfield]

Hello SSS,

Please, every one post their best results shooting their Spencer.  


                                              (Photo Posted by Two Flints)

So this was my idea for SSS.  A Distance shooting contest in the SSS Forum. Target 50m distance and you shoot 20 times with your Spencer!

My Loading and shooting data:

Spencer-Rifle Armi Sport
40grs Swiss Black Powder 40grs.Nr.2
Bullet 359 grs
Bullet with 2mm paper gas check
Cartridge looks like original 56-56
Bullet is far from the sleeve
Bullet is far from the cartridge
whole length 44mm! changed Cartridge extractor
result is I Shoot like with power!

Beat my score if you can!


44mm! changed Cartridge extractor
                                                  (Photo Posted by Two Flints)


Hatfield

[Blair]

hatfield,

That is a good target
Be pleased with yourself.
My best.
Blair

[PvtGreg]

8in target 100 yards (92m)

PvtGreg

[Blair]

I wont brake out my customized Spencer Burnside Carbine that I converted into what I call a 458-Colt Sporting Rifle.
It is a hybrid and should not be compared to the original 56-50 cal.
I will say this, out to 200 yards it hits what you want it to hit.
It is very much like the 56-46, but without the bottle neck casing, it is based off of a shortened 45-70 casing to a 45 Colt.

The Larry Romano made Spencer's may also offer some competition to these targets?
Just some thoughts on my part, however, this target is very good!
My best,
Blair

[Herbert]

That cartridge sounds interesting,did you have to change anything with the extractor to make it work on the smaller case.Any chance of some pictures

[Two Flints]

Blair,

As before, if you want you can send the photos to me . . . and I'll post to your post.

Two Flints

[Blair]

Herbert,

Yes, there were.

I tried to minimize the changes as much as I could.

I will try to offer any help I can on what I have done. please e-mail me?
My best,
  Blair

[Blair]

My customized Spencer Burnside Carbine that I converted into what I call a 458-Colt Sporting Rifle.



Photo items identified:
Center piece, Original Burnside Carbine converted to a Sporting Rifle chambered in 45 Silhouette/458-Colt.  Fringed Buck Skin Coat.  Civil War Cavalry Horse Blanket. Bull's-eye Canteen.  Remington Revolver Conversion to .44 Colt Center Fire (.429 bore). Holster made by me (based on one in "Packing Iron").  Georgia Frame Buckle and Belt with Civil War Cap Pouch for Revolver Rounds. Blakeslee Six Tube Cartridge Box with 7 round Cardboard Boxed Ammo."
A lot of the items were available as CW/Army surplus.

My Sporting Rifle is a hybrid and should not be compared to the original 56-50 caliber. I will say this, out to 200 yards it hits what you want it to hit. It is very much like the 56-46, but without the bottle neck casing, it is based off of a shortened 45-70 casing to a 45 Colt.

And finally, this is my article  which discusses the conversion of my Spencer to shoot center-fire cartridges.  This article appeared in the 1994 November/December issue of the NCOWS magazine, The Shootist.














I tried to minimize the changes to original parts as much as I could. Generally making new parts as were needed. That way I could always replace the unaltered original parts to being the arm back to its original Burnside Carbine configuration.
The three major components were the barrel, upper center fire breech block, and the cartridge stop on the lower breech block.
All these original parts can be replaced to put the arm back into its original condition.
My best,
Blair

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

hatfield's thread generated interest in the Burnside Spencer that was converted by Blair into a Sporting Rifle chambered to shoot a 45 Silhouette/458-colt cartridge.

Two Flints

[Blair]

Two Flints,

Again, thank you so much for posting this info for me.
I hope some folks here will find it useful.
My best,
Blair

[Herbert]

Interesting cartridge,but I think I will stick to a version of the 56-46 that uses a .458-295 gr bullet,cases to be made from 32ga brass shot shells.I will go this because I want to use a NM action and it makes conversion much simpler.Your cartridge would be a good one for a Ami Sports Spencer with the lane type extractor,could be set up very easy I would think

[Blair]

Herbert,

I am glad you saw this information.
I, along with Two Flints, have been concerned about this type of Hybrid cartridge and how well it may or may not be received on this forum.
I would defiantly not recommend or suggest doing this kind of alteration to an original Spencer. Especially with the alternatives available today.
I chose to do it because I have worked on this project for a very long time and believed I could pull it off. I was not disappointed.
It is also important to note that there were no reproductions at the time and very little to no loading equipment and/or data when I was working this up.
Today, it is a very different ball game. And I would highly recommend any and all of these alternatives be explorer before using an original firearm.
Thank you for your reply.
My best,
Blair

[Herbert]

The NM action I found was only a action with the bottom block and leaver,no other parts except for the Spencer cut-off,over the years I have slowly found the missing parts or made them,it is now ready for a barrel ,I got the CH 56-46 dies so I could make a reamer to suit that would also be OK with the .458-295gr bullet,have not decided on the twist rate yet but thinking about 1 in 28 should be good ,any thoughts welcome

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings, Herbert, Blair, et al!

   Although I currently do not have the funds, I've been thinking a bit about a modern "56-46 CF" that
would be as true to the original cartridge design as possible, and yet be practical, and easy to create.
   I just happen to have a 56-46RF in front of me; the neck diameter is +/- .475", the same as many ".45"
cartridges (.45Colt). I envision doing away with the Outside Lubricated Bullet, elongating the cartridge
neck, and seating a 300 / 350 grain Bullet, mated to a barrel with a +/- .450"bore / .458"groove. This
should allow the use of readily obtainable dies ( C&H ), the difference being the use of the smaller diameter
bullet ( Ideal # 457191? ). I think that this would be a nearly authentic BN cartridge, and, in my mind, a
viable Deer cartridge. I believe that a 1 / 22" twist would work well.
   Just my thoughts.

            Be Well!

                          M.T.Marfield

[El Supremo]

Hello:

Larry Romano makes his own barrels and has experimented with twists.  For example:  The factory Uberti Henry 44-40 twist is 36".  Using a standard bullet and black powder, he found that 18" worked best.  For 45LC, he found that 16" was optimum. 

Some barrel makers either won't or cannot cut faster than 24". 

The Greenhill formula was for artillery projectiles and calculates only the minimum twist and in its most common, abbreviated version, leaves out many important variables.  It will NOT identify the optimal twist for our guns!

Larry's extensive testing indicated that Greenhill derived rifling twists for our guns are too slow . 
He creates tack-driving rifles and has settled on what has proved the most successful for many years using bullets he has tested.

With our modest BP velocities, that cannot be changed enough to stabilize an otherwise unstable bullet, changing bullet LENGTH is one way to "live with" an existing twist. 

JMHO, while 24", which IS the twist in Burnside Spencers, should work, why not go a bit faster into the 18" range? 

Regards,
Kevin

[Herbert]

I have had very bad results with the 1 in 18 twist with 44-40 unless you use a longer bullet than the standard 200gr(the 1 in 36 twist in original Winchesters always shoots very well  with the 200 gr bullet) same with the Ami Sports 56-50 fast twist in the rifle, I just could not get it to shoot until I used a 400+ bullets,I got Larry to reline the barrel to 1in 36 and it shoots very well now.Springfield did extenseve tests twists for the 56-46 twist and come up with the conclusion that 1 in 24 twist was the most accurate barrel for this cartridge,however this was with a 400gr bullet,I intend to use a 292gr bullet so I think the twist should be slowed down a bit.I base this on fist hand experience + the old 19th century target rifle formular  for twist rates going by bullet length,velocity and barrel groove diameter.I could have had bad luck but I have never had good accuracy with the fast twists that some have put in new made 45 Colt rifles and lately I have noticed the better makers have slowed there twist rates down

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Herbert:

Bullet length is the critical factor at BP velocities. 
I've taken 40 to 45 caliber bullets to, please believe it, 16", BUT the bullet was at least 3 calibers long.
You ARE the man!

VERY respectfully,
Kevin

[Blair]

Herbert,

Just my opinion, but this is also based on my own experience... (38-55, 40-65 and 45-70)
The lighter bullets such as 295 to 300 grain weight bullets. up to about a 350 grain weight, do better with the slower twist rates. Perhaps 1 in 36 "?
Within the single shot breech loading rifles the heavier + longer bullets seem to like the faster twist rates like 1 in 24 to as fast as 1 in 16 ". Especially with the longer barrels at the longer ranges.
However, the repeating rifles like the Spencer's are limited to overall length (OAL) of the finished cartridge to feed and extract reliably.
My best,
Blair

[Herbert]

Agree 100%.I have never been unhappy if I use the old 19th century target shooting formula for bullet length groove diameter to choose a twist rate,I find this much more important when using short fat bullets that have to be used in the Spencer repeater,longer bullets seem to be much more forgiving over a wider rang of twist rates but they too have there sweet spot

[Blair]

 My cartridge choice came about primarily due to economics of the time period I was developing this.
50-70's were costing about $2.25 each... 348's, if you could find them were close to $2.75 per casing.
45-70 cases were running about 0.35 cents each. This was a no brainer for me, if I could get the smaller rim dia. of the 45-70 case to work within the Spencer action???

The "45 Silhouette", or as I call it a 458- Colt, allows me to use a 300 gr or 350 gr weight bullet with 35 grs. of ffg or fffg  blackpowder.

Loading dies and tools were also hard to come by for common Spencer ammo variations during this time period.

I got the smaller 45-70 case rim dia. to work within the Spencer action by modifying the cartridge stop on the lower breech block into something very much like the "Lane type" extractor.
This system and ammo have worked very well for me and what I wish to achieve with this alteration.
It will, however, not be every bodies cup of tea.
My best,
Blair