Historical Technology Question

TUCO-the-ratt · January 14, 2015, 09:59:47 AM

I've been reading about what it takes to get a lever gun to function with BP on this forum without the action quickly filling full of crud from blow back. There is, of course, plenty of helpful info and my first attempt yesterday was a success as I used the recommended 44-40, duplicating the original technology with it's soft thin case and bottleneck design.

This brought up a question that I have yet to find an answer to through my research. How did the original Winchester 1886 lever gun chambered in 45-70 BP function with the 45-70 case which is a tapered straight-wall case and has very stiff thick walls on the case. Also, single shot rifles that eat the 45-70 in BP are known to be quickly fouling, if a blow tube or frequent wiping are not applied. So how did the 1886 work?

Shotgun Franklin · January 14, 2015, 10:08:22 AM

I believe that the old black powders were cleaner than those used today, maybe not but tell me how some like a Buffalo Hunter could kill several dozen animals everyday for days on end? I don't recall reading where they had a problem. Soldiers were issued 100 rounds of rifle ammo and 50 for the revolver, what would be the point if the guns couldn't handle that ammo? Maybe someone knows better than I do, I'm basing this on doing a lot of reading and study about the later 1800s.
As to fouling in the '86, they were hunting guns and the Buffalo hunting was over, maybe 5 or 6 rounds a day was enough?

Bruce W Sims · January 14, 2015, 02:48:46 PM

...and why stop there, guys:

Frankly, I've been scatching my head over this for some time now. Regardless of how easy
it is to clean a gun AFTERWARDS, I am another person who has also wondered about just
how fouled a gun might become with standard use and what folks in that pickle might do about it.

Here's a thought......

a fella is in a campaign during the Indian Wars (say, 1866 - 1900) and he's in a fire-fight of some kind, maybe a series of fights.
How long before that rifle or pistol fouls out? Thoughts? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Roosterman · January 14, 2015, 04:02:55 PM

I don't have trouble with "quick fouling" in a 45-70 with BP. I also have had no trouble with my 45-60 '76 action fouling out with BP, although my bore on that particular rifle fouls quickly. Also I have a '73 in 45LC that works fine with BP as long as I give the action a spritz of solvent or oil every 20 shots or so.

Coffinmaker · January 14, 2015, 04:25:43 PM

Maybe I haven't read the right histories, but I have never seen/read anything that addresses this. Read an awful lot of speculation, but nothing definitive. Good question.

Coffinmaker

Noz · January 14, 2015, 06:17:30 PM

At the peak of the buffalo hunting the hunters worked as a team. They had a shooter who was responsible for killing enough animals to keep the skinners busy all day. They generally had a base camp with sleeping arrangements and a cook. The hunter did nothing but shoot and maintain his guns and ammo.

w44wcf · January 14, 2015, 10:01:55 PM

I don't know about the larger cartridges but in the 1875 Winchester catalog there is a target fired with an 1873 44 WCF that contains 30 shots at 110 yards in less than a 4" group. Doc Pardee stated that the Winchester was steady in its performance and that the shots were fired without cleaning.

No doubt the b.p. used by Winchester back then was superior to what is available today with the possible exception of Swiss and recently Olde Enysford.

In My 44-40 Black Powder Journey post, I was able to replicate that 30 shot without cleaning target using Swiss and the original 44-40 bullet.

w44wcf

Blackpowder Burn · January 15, 2015, 07:31:19 AM

I shoot Marlin lever guns in 38-55 and 45-70 regularly at Cody Dixon matches. I can shoot them all weekend (two matches of 36 rounds each) without cleaning, and with little fouling in the bore. In my opinion (whatever that may be worth

) there are several reasons for this:
1. The rifle cartridges contain sufficient powder to create the pressure required to seal the thicker walled brass effectively to the
chamber.
2. While not bottlenecked, these cases are tapered, which helps seal them to the chamber.
3. Using a bullet carrying sufficient lube to keep the bore wet (DD's Big Lube designs work well, as well as those from Accurate
Molds that w44wcf has mentioned)
4. I do use Swiss and Olde Eynsford powder in these big bore rifles, but also see the same results using standard Goex when
shooting my pistol caliber rifles for 120+ rounds during a weekend match.

At any rate, my brass is shiny and clean when ejected from the rifle, and my bore stays clean. I clean the rifles after the second day of shooting with 4 or 5 patches and a bore snake.

Shotgun Franklin · January 15, 2015, 09:45:56 AM

Does anyone have photos of the actual bullets they used? Or maybe original ads/drawings? I figure the more lube the bullet carries the better. Are the bullets used now better or as good about the lube they're carrying?

Cliff Fendley · January 15, 2015, 09:49:04 AM

Quote from: Shotgun Franklin on January 15, 2015, 09:45:56 AM
Does anyone have photos of the actual bullets they used? Or maybe original ads/drawings? I figure the more lube the bullet carries the better. Are the bullets used now better or as good about the lube they're carrying?

Search this and the 73 forum. There is a ton of info and photos of original bullets and current molds available to produce them. mostly thanks to w44wcf

The Elderly Kid · January 18, 2015, 02:07:49 PM

The buffalo hunters normally used single-shot breechloaders and I've read that when their barrels got too hot and fouled they simply urinated down the breech to (partially) clean and cool it. I can't recommend this for lever-actions, though.

Fox Creek Kid · January 20, 2015, 12:29:02 AM

They didn't shoot repeaters like we do today unless surrounded by hordes of hostiles or bandits. As well, they wiped the bore.

Shotgun Franklin · January 20, 2015, 09:36:44 AM

Sometimes there were fights that took a lot of rounds. The Box Wagon Fight and Breecher's Island come to mind for the Military. There were many fights in Texas, The Battle of the Stone Houses was one, where many rounds were fired. If their guns had been jamming up I think at least one of those involved would have mentioned it.

rbertalotto · January 20, 2015, 12:48:25 PM

Buffalo hunters only shot as many buffalo in a morning as the skinners could deal with. A large hunting party might only be able to process a few buffalo in a day. The idea of a buffalo hunter shooting dozens of buffalo in a day just didn't happen. If they shot their rifles more than a dozen times in a day, that would be a lot.

Yes, the "Big 50" and the 45-120 rifle fouled like crazy. Urine down the barrel or other water was often used. The 45-70 wasn't used on Buffalo by the professional hunters. Toward the end of the big herds the government was supplying 45-70 ammo for free to eradicate the buffalo in certain areas. It would take a lot of fouling in a 45-120 shooting 45-70 for the gun to not be able to be loaded. The buffalo hunters guns were extremely expensive back in the day and were very well cared for.

Lever action rifles fouled just like they do today. Cleaning rods were found in the butt stock of all the BP lever rifles. A wet patch needed to be shoved down the bore regularly, even in the heat of a battle. But again, unlike we see in the movies, most Indian skirmishes didn't last all that long and hundreds of rounds were not fired.

The Trap Door Springfield was the real bug-aboo. With copper cases, rounds that didn't fit the chambers, fouling and other issues, it's a wonder there weren't more Little Big Horns. Other than a few big engagements, lots of rounds were rarely fired. This wasn't Vietnam! A few shots, Indians run away, burn and pillage was the order of the event.

Roosterman · January 20, 2015, 04:22:37 PM

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on January 20, 2015, 12:29:02 AM
They didn't shoot repeaters like we do today unless surrounded by hordes of hostiles or bandits. As well, they wiped the bore.

I was going to say that but didn't want everybody yelling at me.

TUCO-the-ratt · January 20, 2015, 04:29:25 PM

Quote from: rbertalotto on January 20, 2015, 12:48:25 PM
It would take a lot of fouling in a 45-120 shooting 45-70 for the gun to not be able to be loaded.

Can you please clearify what you mean by a 45-120 shooting 45-70?

Roosterman · January 20, 2015, 04:36:29 PM

If I recall, the 45-120 wasn't invented yet during the buffalo hunting period. Or maybe it was the 45-140...I can't remember....... $:-\$
Must of the buffs were taken pretty close (relatively) untill near the end of the northern herd.

rbertalotto · January 20, 2015, 04:42:24 PM

.45-75 Sharps (.45-70 Sharps)

In 1875 a civilian version of the .45-70 Government was produced by the Sharps Company as the .45-75 Sharps (Straight), and sometimes called the .45-70 Sharps. The Sharps Company liked the name on their rifles to match the name on the cartridge it used, a common marketing strategy at the time. These cartridges were actually dimensionally identical to the .45-70 Govt., and factory loads used a 400 grain bullet at a MV of 1330 fps and ME of 1580 ft. lbs.

.45-90, .45-100, and .45-110 Sharps (Straight)

This series of Sharps rifle cartridges are all based on the same basic case trimmed to lengths of 2.875", 2.60", and 2.40". The original was the 2.875" (2 7/8") .45-110, introduced in 1876. The .45-100 (2.6" case) was added at the end of 1876 and the .45-90 (2.4" case) appeared during 1877. The base diameter of these big rimmed, straight taper cases was .500" and the neck diameter was .489". All of these cartridges used standard .458" diameter bullets.

The .45-90 was virtually identical to the .45-70 with a longer case, and .45-70 ammunition can safely be fired in .45-90 rifles. This was quite useful on the frontier, where .45-70 Government ammunition was widely distributed, and made the Sharps .45-90 a popular buffalo rifle.

All of the cartridges in this series could be used with bullets weighing 320 grains to 550 grains. The heavier bullets were the best for hunting buffalo, and the larger cases favored the heavier bullets. Factory loads for the .45-110-550 launched a 550 grain bullet at a MV of 1360 fps with ME of 2240 ft. lbs.

Frank Mayer, a well known buffalo hunter, tried various rifles but preferred his Sharps .45-90-420, which was equipped with a 20x telescopic sight made in Germany. He found that the 420 grain bullet shot flatter over ranges out to 300 yards, and killed faster than the lighter bullets he had tried. Mayer's .45-90 Sharps rifle had a 32" barrel and weighed 12 pounds.

.45-120 and .45-125 Sharps (Straight)

Introduced late in 1878 or early in 1879, the .45-120 Sharps was a very powerful bison cartridge that arrived too late to make much difference in the fate of the great herds. This huge rimmed, straight taper case was 3.25" long with a head diameter of .506" and a neck diameter of .490". COL was 4.16"!

Cases were made with two different wall thicknesses, which therefore had different maximum powder capacities. Hence the .45-120 and .45-125 designations. Externally the two were identical, and the same rifle could fire either cartridge.

Factory loads drove a 500 grain lead bullet at a MV of 1520 fps with ME of 2561 ft. lbs. A 550 grain bullet could be given a MV of 1500 fps and ME of 2749 ft. lbs. by 120 grains of black powder. One account I read stated that the recoil of the big cartridge was surprisingly mild. The reported 19 pound weight of Sharps rifles so chambered may have had something to do with this.

TUCO-the-ratt · January 20, 2015, 05:17:12 PM

Quote from: rbertalotto on January 20, 2015, 04:42:24 PM
.45-75 Sharps (.45-70 Sharps)

In 1875 a civilian version of the .45-70 Government was produced by the Sharps Company as the .45-75 Sharps (Straight), and sometimes called the .45-70 Sharps. The Sharps Company liked the name on their rifles to match the name on the cartridge it used, a common marketing strategy at the time. These cartridges were actually dimensionally identical to the .45-70 Govt., and factory loads used a 400 grain bullet at a MV of 1330 fps and ME of 1580 ft. lbs.

.45-90, .45-100, and .45-110 Sharps (Straight)

This series of Sharps rifle cartridges are all based on the same basic case trimmed to lengths of 2.875", 2.60", and 2.40". The original was the 2.875" (2 7/8") .45-110, introduced in 1876. The .45-100 (2.6" case) was added at the end of 1876 and the .45-90 (2.4" case) appeared during 1877. The base diameter of these big rimmed, straight taper cases was .500" and the neck diameter was .489". All of these cartridges used standard .458" diameter bullets.

The .45-90 was virtually identical to the .45-70 with a longer case, and .45-70 ammunition can safely be fired in .45-90 rifles. This was quite useful on the frontier, where .45-70 Government ammunition was widely distributed, and made the Sharps .45-90 a popular buffalo rifle.

All of the cartridges in this series could be used with bullets weighing 320 grains to 550 grains. The heavier bullets were the best for hunting buffalo, and the larger cases favored the heavier bullets. Factory loads for the .45-110-550 launched a 550 grain bullet at a MV of 1360 fps with ME of 2240 ft. lbs.

Frank Mayer, a well known buffalo hunter, tried various rifles but preferred his Sharps .45-90-420, which was equipped with a 20x telescopic sight made in Germany. He found that the 420 grain bullet shot flatter over ranges out to 300 yards, and killed faster than the lighter bullets he had tried. Mayer's .45-90 Sharps rifle had a 32" barrel and weighed 12 pounds.

.45-120 and .45-125 Sharps (Straight)

Introduced late in 1878 or early in 1879, the .45-120 Sharps was a very powerful bison cartridge that arrived too late to make much difference in the fate of the great herds. This huge rimmed, straight taper case was 3.25" long with a head diameter of .506" and a neck diameter of .490". COL was 4.16"!

Cases were made with two different wall thicknesses, which therefore had different maximum powder capacities. Hence the .45-120 and .45-125 designations. Externally the two were identical, and the same rifle could fire either cartridge.

Factory loads drove a 500 grain lead bullet at a MV of 1520 fps with ME of 2561 ft. lbs. A 550 grain bullet could be given a MV of 1500 fps and ME of 2749 ft. lbs. by 120 grains of black powder. One account I read stated that the recoil of the big cartridge was surprisingly mild. The reported 19 pound weight of Sharps rifles so chambered may have had something to do with this.

Don't you think you should include a bibliography with your post? Since it is copied/pasted from here

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

Fox Creek Kid · January 21, 2015, 03:20:38 AM

Quote from: TUCO-the-ratt on January 20, 2015, 05:17:12 PM
Don't you think you should include a bibliography with your post? Since it is copied/pasted from here

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

As well, a lot of it is BS to boot.

Quote from: rbertalotto on January 20, 2015, 12:48:25 PM...A large hunting party might only be able to process a few buffalo in a day. The idea of a buffalo hunter shooting dozens of buffalo in a day just didn't happen. If they shot their rifles more than a dozen times in a day, that would be a lot...

That's patently false. Stories abound of many pro hunters shooting over 50 in a day. It depended on their ability, as well as luck, in getting a 'stand'.