Loading 45-70 450gr for Trapdoor - Help

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

There is Adobe Wells, Sunnyvale CA, a trailer park

There is Adobe Wells, Kansas

There is Adobe Wells, McAllen TX 

But it was in Adobe WALLS, TX where Biily Dixon made his name.

[Dick Dastardly]

Ranch 13,  You hit the nail on the head.  At Winnequah I learned that 1000 yard shooters do not use "Magnum" primers.  In fact, this is where I learned that large pistol primers were the best choice for very consistent velocities.  Black Powder just doesn't need the high brisance of Magnum primers and in fact does not benefit from it.

DD-MDA

[bowiemaker]

Helpful information. Thanks

[Don Kenna]

Hello, Bowiemaker:

I've been a long-range black powder cartridge rifle shooter for many years now, and the .45/70 is still my favorite cartridge.

Others have already pointed out that the length restriction largely applies to repeating rifles--primarily of the lever action type.  My standard load for years has been the following:

Paul Jones 546-grain "Creedmoor" bullet (in 1:20 alloy)
SPG Bullet Lube
.060-inch vegetable fiber wad topped by two newsprint wads
65 grains Swiss 1-1/2 powder
Federal 215 Magnum primer
Overall Length:  2.890-inch

The above is a two-diameter bullet with a long bore-riding forepart, as are most.

Don't even think about using the bullet to compress the powder charge more than a few thousandths of an inch.  You'll bulge the bullet's forepart so the cartridge won't chamber.  (Don't ask how I found that out, but it was the same way I found out most pitfalls in BPCR shooting.)  Instead, invest in some sort of powder compression die.  Most of us use those sold by Buffalo Arms, but there are others.

At the risk of annoying some who have kindly helped me in the past, I must emphatically warn you against using pistol primers in rifle cases.  Due to their shorter height and thinner cup construction, they slam back against the breech block upon firing with such remarkable force that they can soon cause cratering of the block face.  Kirk Bryant of Shiloh Sharps will echo my warning in view of the number of breech blocks he has seen ruined by the use of pistol primers.  Rifle primers only in rifle cases.

That still begs the question of the necessity or even advisability of using magnum rifle primers with black powder.  All of us did so when BPCR shooting became popular again over thirty years ago.  Some experienced BPCR shooters who regularly outshoot me have converted, though, insisting that standard large rifle primers should be used with black powder, and that the mildest of those should be preferred.  Many in that group favor CCI BR2 primers.   I can only cite my own experience.  I've given standard rifle primers at least two honest, extensive tries.  My groups on paper always enlarged with the use of standard primers, and I returned to the use of magnum primers.  Others have had similar experiences.

Anyway, there's my story and I hope it's of some help to you.

Don Kenna

[bowiemaker]

That is very helpful. Thank you.

It would seem that my not being able to chamber a cartridge longer than about 2.55" is due to the broad nose shape of the bullet I am using. I will stick to the rifle primers but may try standard and magnums for comparison. JS Wolf seemed convinced that the primers made a big difference in accuracy.

I have ordered a compression die and am waiting for it to arrive before loading anything. If I can't get some acceptable results out of these 450 gr bullets I will try another size/shape.

[wildman1]

Do not be afraid of starting a little low and working your way up as far as powder charges are concerned. If you try reg vs. mag primers you will probably find some rifles like the magnum primers some don't and with some it makes no difference. I have an '86 Win that will not get acceptable accuracy with mag primers but is very accurate with reg primers. I have a Trapdoor that seems not to matter which is used. The only BP loads I have been able to find for the Win specify mag primers are the best, my rifle however, does not like them. wM1

[Bruce W Sims]

This may be one of those threads that will wind up in my collection against the time I get a trapdoor for myself.
Just sayin...you guys are awesome!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho Bowiemaker,

Here's a bullet that flies very well to 1000 yards and beyond.  It has a semi spitzer nose and packs plenty of lube for continued shooting without need to clean between shots.  I've found this bullet very accurate out to 1000 yards.

DD-MDA

[rifle]

When it come to primers I think the neck tension and the firmness of the crimp come hand in hand with that. Paper in the case in front of the flash hole doesn't cut down on the pressure from the primer blast. It's not the flash from the primer that causes some trouble it's the pressure as I see it. The pressure can move the load chain and let the powder ignite in a larger space and cause inconsistancy.

A primer can pop the bullet into the rifling where it can stop a milli-second before the pressure rises to start it again. Sorta like a hangfire you can't detect it happens so fast. Anywhooooo....paper in the primer pocket can be used sometimes to get the primer flush with the case head if the primers go a lil too deep.

Slug a three groove bore by taking the slug and measuring from a land sticking up on the slug to the other side straight thru the diameter where there is no land sticking up(lead that filled the grooves) and add the depth of the rifling to that. That gets ya close anywhoooo.

That Lee bullet shown in the beginning seems to me more like a smokeless bullet than a blackpowder bullet. A bullet fer smokeless in a lever action.

I'd grab another bullet mould that has less groove diameter dimension length to it and keep the current mould fer smokelss powder.


A good mould is one that has the front of the bullet ride the lands. Not just stick loose in the lands but loosely ride the lands. Loose enough to load awhile after there is some fouling present.