colt army .466

[hatfield]

Hi from Germany,
i look for colt army( .44) loading data
a Problem, the Barrels Diameter is .466 !
colt is italian reblik, who can help ?    ! not in the srcap metal !

Hatfield

[Blackpowder Burn]

Hatfield,

Greetings from the Republic of Texas! 

What is the caliber chambering stamped on the barrel of the gun?  That is which 44 caliber cartridge (44 Colt, 44 Russian, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 44 WCF, etc.)

Are you saying that you have slugged the barrel and the groove diameter is 0.466"?  Did you actually measure it in inches, or in metric?  If you measured in metric, could there have been a conversion error to inches?  Most "44" caliber barrels should be between 0.427" and 0.429" (approximately 10.85 mm).

[Willie Dixon]

I think what Hatfield is checking is a .44 cap & ball BPBurn.  Those are over .45 in the grooves.

To help you out bud, I haven't slugged out my barrels, but...

I have a Pietta 1851 Navy in .44, an Armi San Marco in .44, and an Uberti Walker .44.

I've found so far the .454 ball to fit rather nicely in the chambers.  The Pietta and the ASM both seat the ball solid and with a definite ring around the outside of the chamber.  The chambers are smaller than the barrel, but again, I haven't slugged mine so I don't know exactly by how much.  However, out to 75 yards, both guns shoot the .454 rather well.  The balls are very soft lead, and I'm sure they expand out into the barrel's grooves well.  I haven't shot them into water jugs yet, it's too cold and the water will freeze up!   But it's in the plans come spring-time.  Checking the ball or bullet in a water jug test or ballistic gel is the best way to see what the ball is doing with the rifling.  If it's working solid, there'll be definite grooves in the ball from the rifling. 

The ASM is a tack-driver with the .454s putting a single ragged hole, in the wind at 10 yards off-hand duelist style, with only 20 grains of powder and no compression.  Little kick, tons of fun.  She's gorgeous.

good luck with your gun.  Get us some more details, like if I or BPBurn are correct in knowing which gun you have and we can help you out from there!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

If your revolver is a percussion  in the Army .44 caliber, the groove diameter should normally be about .451, and the distance between lands somewhat less. The proper size ball would be either .451 or .454.

An original Walker or Dragoon would be larger and require a .470 ball.  All current reproduction Walkers & Dragoons are made for a nominal .451 ball.

Do not despair until you try a normal .451-.454 ball shot over a rest. The accepted loading range is from 20 to 28 grains of FFFg powder.

[hatfield]

thanks for reply,
the groove diameter is 0.466 Inch
yes Willie Dixon that's right with the groove
yes, the chambers are smaller than the Barrel
Willie Dixon we have the same Army Revolver
I meet the revolver nothing
I am writing with Google Translater

nochmal danke für eure antwort
Hatfield,  happy new year

[Blair]

hatfield,

Sorry. I can't offer you any help.
I thought a bore diameter of .446 would have been for the minimum bore diameter of a cap and ball revolver classed as a .44 caliber.
Minimum bore diameter would be measured from top of the lands.
Maximum bore would be measured from the bottom of grove to grove depth.
In a cap and ball .44 Colt type revolver, that maximum grove depth would work out to be a .451 diameter bullet.
I hope this translates well for you.
My best,
Blair

[Flint]

Cap & Ball revolvers named the caliber by the bore diameter before rifling.  Cartridge revolvers name the caliber by the groove diameter, after rifling, hence a lot of confusion.

[Willie Dixon]

Flint ^ yep.  It does cause some interesting confusion!

good luck with it Hatfield.  No problem using Google Translator, it'll get the job done!

let us know how it goes!

I'll be picking up a micrometer later on this week.  Once I do, I'll measure up my ASM and Pietta for you for sure!

[Long Johns Wolf]

Hi Hatfield,
für optimale Präzision würde ich den Zugdurchmesser exakt ausmessen und dann die Kammern entsprechend aufreiben lassen.
In D'land müßte das ein BüMa machen, da spanabhebendes Verfahren. Leider gibt es bei uns nicht viele, die das können.
Um welches Revolvermodell von welchem Hersteller handelt es sich?
Viel Erfolg,
Long Johns Wolf

[rifle]

My  question would be ,"what is the chambers diameters?". That is the place to go once the groove diameter of the barrel is known.

Knowing one and not the other leaves a big grey area. Not knowing the manufacturer of the gun makes it a dark grey area.

The Italians leave the chambers small compared to the grooves of the barrel to accomodate subsequent shots with the fiercely fouling black powder. As the barrel fouls the grooves get tighter. Alas they get shallower also.

Piettas seem to come from the factory with chambers less then .450 and the others like ASM and Uberti seem to come mostly with chambers at .450 of an inch.........as a general rule.

If the balls engrave the rifling enough to spin the open grooves from a small ball can close some if the balls obtuate(expand) from the punch of the black powder blast. If the grooves foul uniformly and get smaller uniformly the gases erupt from the crown of the barrel uniformly and the ball can fly straight without a lot of flyers. The fouling accumulating random and making the grooves different depths the gases erupt at the crown at different places and create what turns out to be a bad crown at the muzzle. Bad crowns make guns shoot badly.

Cap&ballers can shoot great if the loader takes pains to shoot from chambers with some form of fouling fighting technics. That can help keep the barrels grooves uniform in depth even with powder trying to foul the barrel.

Adding in the hope of the lead bumping up from the powder blast and guns with chambers .003 to .006 and even .008 inch small for the barrel can shoot well. Obtuation of the lead isn't all it's cracked up to be since lead is harder then most imagine and without the back pressure or resistance of the ball and friction helping the bumping up the bumping up can be random and not reliable.

Of course since fouling accumulates randomly because of temp and humidity there can be cycles of larger groups that can be falsely accredited to the shooter not doing his/her part well when its actually the gun and the fouling and the small chambers causing the ill effects.

Try er out and see what it does with a max powder charge. Try adding a lube pill under the ball to fight fouling. If the gun shoots unacceptably then enlarging the chambers may be needed.....or a new barrel.

If the chambers are to be enlarged then it has to be done juduciously and within safe limits depending on how thick the chamber walls are to begin with. The chambers enlarged only to the depth the ball will be seated to with the powder charge used is a good idea with the rebated cylinders because of the fear of making the area under the cylinder notches too thin. A smith doesn't want to ream a chamber in a rebated cylinder under where the notches are above.

[hatfield]

The revolver is Army Pietta
   Thanks for the information, I will test everything.
   thank you

Hatfield

[rifle]

I should add a little insight to this dilemma where the barrel has .466 grooves and the chambers are probably around .445-6 being Pietta and all. If the chambers are .446 and the barrel grooves are .466 there's a .020 inch difference between the two.

The chambers being the easiest to change in size they would need expanded .020 in. to be the same as the barrel grooves which is optimal. That means each side of the chambers walls would be removing .010 in. of steel. 
Maybe that would be a little much. I''ve reamed my own chambers as much as .018 in. like in a Walker  but reamed only as far in as the nominal powder charge would seat the ball into the new diameter of .468 that was .450 to begin with.

If that may be a little much as reaming .020 in a Pietta Army(has to have thinner chamber walls then the Walker) then a compromise may be in order.

Experience tells me that a cap&baller revolver can shoot acceptably if the barrel  is good with chambers up to .006-7 in smaller then the barrel grooves. So a compromise in a gun with .466 barrel grooves and a chamber size at .007 in. smaller makes fer chambers at .459 right? If the chambers were .446 in. to begin with then they would be enlarged .013 in. right? That would be .0065 taken from each side or the walls to get that .459 in. size.  I'd do a compromise like that to an Army Colt and try er out and see if with fouling control it would shoot well. Seems like a good bet as others have shown theyhave guns with small chamber size and they shoot alright or even real well.

Of course this is just my opinion on the subject.  The other side of the spectrum would be to just buy a new barrel that was closer to the .451 groove diameter they seem to be held at most of the time from the factory. A new barrel isn't that expensive and shouldn't be a problem if ordered from a parts supplier that sells first grade barrels and not factory rejects with defects. I've had problems in the past trying to get a new first grade barrel.

Barrels can come on new cap&ballers or come as a single part where the rifling is deeper on one side then the other and that can cause problems especially where the chambers run a little small. Other types of defects can be a problem as well.

It always helps if a barrel is made well and uniform and all that. Barrels can come with rifling deeper in one side then the other even on cartridge guns so not only cap&ballers. That's something that's good to learn to recognize at the muzzles at the stores where the guns are bought and can be looked at. Looking at the grooves at the muzzle isn't too difficult if the light available is good enough to see some grooves are deeper then others.

Even if the grooves of a barrel are deeper on one side compared to the other they can still shoot well if.....then chambers size the balls so as the balls get tight to the bottom of all the grooves. That means small chambers won't get the job done well enough as they may if all the barrel grooves are the same depth.

That means if a barrel on the gun has non-uniform rifling grooves the chambers need to size the balls to fill all the grooves to get the gun to shoot well.........under one other condition.

The barrel of a cap&baller revolver that has to contend with non-uniform rifling depths and has the chambers of the cylinder sized so the ball is swagged the right size to fill the grooves of the barrel must have that one other modification to shoot well.

That is......THE CROWN must be removed at the muzzle so the gases erupt from the grooves at all the same time and place as the balls enter free air space.  That means the crown needs faced off so the barrel has a flat faced muzzle. A flat face that is concentric with the bore of the barrel. That is important. The face needs faced flat with a lath or a snug piloted reamer. Snug where the pilot fits the lands real well with no slop. Why is this needed with a barrel with non-uniform rifling depth?

The barrel with non-uniform rifling depth and "having a crown" will let the deeper grooves blow gas sooner then the shallow grooves at the muzzle. The gases erupting from the deeper grooves first can blow the balls a little off course and that shows up more as the distance to the target increases. Thus the flat face where the crown is removed fixes that problem(lets the gas erupt from all the grooves at the same micro-second) as long as the balls fill all the grooves to the bottom. That requires chambers that swag the ball the diameter the barrels grooves are at.  Make sense?

As the saying goes,"all things lead to another", there is another consideration to all this. What?

The alignment of the chambers to the bore needs to be spot on and if there's any doubt then the forcing cone needs spiffed up some to help. That's if the alignment is off a little bit. If the alignment is off too much then that needs fixed first. Then the forcing cone looked at and maybe smoothed and enlarged a little bit to help the balls get to the center of the barrel bore and fill all the grooves well. Get in there without deforming any. The 11 degree forcing cone works well.

Since balls are used in cap&ballerr revolvers the forcing cones can be enlarged in diameter and elongated some more than fer conicals bullets use. If the alignment of the chambers to the bore is off a little sometimes doing the forcing cones up to guide the balls to the center of the bore works without doing all the alignment of the chambers to the bore rigaramow. Know what I mean?

In the long run once things are straightened out with yer cap&baller revolver including fouling control a lot a decent shooting can be done without the doubts about whether the gun or the shooter are in fault. It's nice to know yer gun can do the job and if it ain't then it's the shooter messin up. Once the time is taken to spiff the gun up then there's a lot more time spent over the years havin some good enjoyable shooting. I mean who the heck can enjoy a gun that won't shoot well?

Gotta go. Gotta pet Momma and feed the hounds.....or is it....feed Momma and pet the hounds?  Later Hombre!

[Blair]

hatfield,

Do you know if your revolver has been altered/modified by a company in Germany?
Here in the USA we call the company "Hege". They are cap and ball revolvers that have been highly altered and very accurate in competition shooting.
I seem to remember "Hege" opening the chamber mouth of the cylinder and bore diameter to something that would allow .466 bullets. (I could be incorrect in my memory of that diameter?)
My best,
Blair

[rifle]

Howdy Mr. Blair,

I didn't know Hege altered cap&baller revolvers. Would be interesting to search that out of the black abiss of the unknown.

I have an altered belgian Colt (Army 1860 44) that has the Alexander Henry rifling put to the barrel. You know of that type rifling?

The liner(sleeve) installed in the defective barrel is for a .454 ball or bullet and blackpowder. Made fer blackpowder. Some sort of non-fouling rifling. Weird rifling from the traditional stand point.

Most all the rifling is a .445 diameter with that diameter being the bigger percentage of the barrels interior.. Almost like a six sided bore sorta like the pentagonal bore of the Confederate sniper riflie that shoots a five sided bullet. The only .454 in the barrel is a thin area along each side of the lands. The 454 balls the chambers swag them to(gun loads with .464 balls) are extreamly tight in most of the bore. It's like the balls couldn't strip thru that rifling without spinning no way no how.

The gun shoots really well believe it or not. Fouling is minimal too but I use lube pills as a matter of habit so I can't say whether or not the rifling itself is non-fouling. Anywhooo.....it's been modified by "Rifle" in the USA.   

I thought Hege made thier own guns like the Remington target type they sell or did sell. I thought maybe they had Pedersoli make them since Pedersoli sold a Remington also at one time.
I thunk Hege sold the Uberti Thurer conversion at one time over in Europe . Uberti used to make special brass cases fer that conversion. Always wanted one of those even if they may not have functioned well. I figger they must have functioned at least alright.

[Noz]

I hope we come to some conclusion about this gun. Very interesting to have one so oversized.

[Blair]

rifle,

The only two "Hege" firearms I am familiar with were the NM Remington and Rogers & Spencer revolvers.
These were very popular within the N-SSA pistol competitors. When they could be had here in the States.
Pedersoli offered the Remington and R&S as well, and still offers the Remington. The R&S's all came from Euroarms, and are no more.
Pedersoli Remington's come with 7 grove barrels. I don't know what bullet diameter they recommend, but I could write to them and ask?
There was a company here in the US, "Ball" or perhaps it was "Ball & Ball" that made up highly accurate Remington's and R&S's for competition shooters. I believe they have retired for doing that work now.
My best,
Blair

[hatfield]

blair

Yes Hege, Remington revolver modified by top (.451
round ball), but no Colt model

today, was on the firing range, nothing.!
I'm building a new cylinder ... done

Hatfield

[Long Johns Wolf]

Regarding HEGE: they used to be the exclusive Uberti distributor for Germany. Today they are one of a few distributors here.
During the 1960s through ca. 1980s they had a few guns made to their specs.
I am also aware of Remington NMA 1863s and RS 1865s tuned according to their specs after the 1980s, ditto Uberti SAA's, RM-Conversions and Win 73s during the 2000s.
Long Johns Wolf

[Blair]

All,

I sent an e-mail to Pedersoli, requesting info on the bullet diameter they recommend for their Remington C&B revolver. I will post their reply when I get it.
I will also e-mail a request for info regarding their knowledge of anyone that may be, or had been, using a .466 diameter bullet in any cap & ball revolver?
This is the best I have to offer at this time.
My best,
Blair

[rifle]

I checked with Pedersoli a good while back about the chamber/barrel groove diameter putnto the Remington and the Rodgers and Spencer. I swear what I remember bout the RS is the rifling was .001 inch deep. Then chambers very close to groove diameter if not right at it.  The Remington had deeper rifling then the RS and, if I remember right  , the chambers were .001 in. under the barrel groove diameter.  I just stored it away in the attic as, the chambers and barrel grooves were about equal.

I remember the "Ball" Blair mentioned. I believe he's referring to,"Ball Accuracy". Gunsmith last name was Ball. Nice guy and phone friend to me. We talked "Cap&Ball", fer long fer the phone conversation. Ideas back and forth. Not much I could add to his stash of knowledge. One thing I remember was my habit of using end mills on a mill machine to enlarge chambers. Ball used chucking reamers. I converted to chucking reamers instead of end mills due to getting the walls smoother easier. Balls recommendation. I set the end mills aside for use only where more metal had to be removed then is good to do with a reamer.

His Supreme Tune job included a new Badgers barrel. I asked why and he said."it's what the people want".  What the seekers of accuracy wanted fer competition. I later learned the Badger barrels ,fer some unknown to me reason, fouled a lot less and had specs and uniformity better then the standard Italian factory barrels. Ball would line bore cylinders so the alignment of the chambers to the bore was perfect asnd needed fer competition grade cap&baller revolvers. Doing the Remingtons  he used a fixture made from a barrel cut off and reamed smooth for pilots  and a reamer set thru the centered holes in the pilots. Best way to do that if....the cylinder is locked in perfectly solid.

Anywhoooo....I liked the Hombre and was deeply saddened when I learned he was killed in an accident with an automobile. I picked up some good tips from him since he was a Gentlemen and a Scholar and a good gunsmith and not afraid to work with the cap&ballers. Every now and then a revolver he tuned is sold somewhere.

Anywhoooo.....this has come to a conclusion since Hatfield is building a new cylinder. He didn't give any specs though. That would conclude this knowing that. Chambers right at groove or .001,.002,.003 over barrel groove? Reason to not just buy a new barrel with better specs?  Cheaper to build or modify the cylinder?  If it were me helping to straighten things out I'd prefer a new barrel or...sleeve the original. Then ream the cylinder to be compatable with the barrel.

At the very least I like the chambers to be what the barrel grooves are. At the most,and what I prefer, is the chambers to be .003 in. over what the barrel grooves are.