Clothing and accountrements for a Mesteñero circa early 1870s

[Willie Dixon]

Greetings all

basically, I'm going to start working on a kit for an early 1870s Mesteñero persona in the American Southwest (Cali to Texas, centralized in the Arizona Territory) for the NCOWS Originals category as one of my primary goals.  This is also for demonstrations I'll be doing with the general public at county fairs, events, rodeos, etc.  

for the most part, I'm going to use standard terms rather than the Spanish ones, just for clarity's sake.  For example, there's plenty of debate and discussion among the people I work with between a Buckaroo, Vaquero, Charro, and Mestenero...  when in fact, they can all loosely be related to the generic term "cowboy."  I'm just using Mestenero myself up front, because that is my ultimate goal.

First off, Mesteñeros were basically a specialized form of Vaquero... ish.  I'm not really sure if that delineation in jobs was actually shown then, as I'm having a hard time with primary texts at the moment, and my rudimentary Spanish is only taking me so far.   I'd really like to know if they were paid more, or less, what their social station was among the group and in general, etc.  Anyways, they specialized in working with the wild Mustang herds and picking the best for their working horses.

first off, I have read Mr. Ellis' wonderful thread: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,28287.0.html and I know there are some similarities.  However, I just want to key in on the specifics.

beyond that,

I'll be making realistically all the garb and accouterments myself, maybe.  The gunleather will be something new, but I'm quite proficient with a seam-ripper so I feel confident in making the clothing items myself for the most part.

I have found what appears to be a fairly nice tertiary source:
http://www.nmhcpl.org/COWBOY.html
"COWBOYS – VAQUEROS: Origins of The First American Cowboys" by Donald Chavez y Gilbert

the book is separated by chapter and free to download


and the wonderful book Mr. Tsalagidave found
"Reminiscence of a Ranger" by Horace Bell

and this is where my questions begin:
what materials were used for the coat, vest, pants?




is leather something that's viable for all of it, such as this very nice and highly expensive version?


basically I'm wondering what was wool, linen, cotton, etc.  I'm thinking the shirts and long undergarments were either linen or cotton, just thinking about the weather here in the Southwest.  But I'm at a loss for the rest.

also beyond that, this picture rings dear to me:


like the nice jacket and pants above, I'm wondering just how ornate my kit can become?  Basically I'm thinking the silver or even brass conchos and buttons (the little dot kind, sorry don't know the term) would look stellar at events.  If I need to make one set for public events and one that is completely historical, I'm kind of okay with that, but at the same time, part of the point for me is to be in historical garb during my demos.

Basically, I'm wondering what a Mestenero would have spent his money on?  I know plenty of people around here that spend all their monthly budget on entertainment systems, and the newest truck, all while living in either an apartment or a trailer lol.  

I'm just wondering if the Mestenero was the same? That like the Californios that preceded them, they enjoyed showing their wealth in their clothing, tack, and gear?  I'm leaning towards thinking so, at least for the ones that were proud in what they did.  I just think back to my time in the USCG... I had no bills, and was freely housed and fed, much like the cowboys and vaqueros.  Needless to say, for an 18 year old, I had more money than I knew what to do with!  

beyond that, I'd love to thank:
Tsalagidave
WaddWatsonEllis
and Chuck Burrows
for all the work they've already done in Mr. Ellis' thread it's been very inspirational and helpful.

[Willie Dixon]

not quite my timeframe, but definitely helpful:
http://www.petalumaadobe.com/educational/costumeS.pdf

http://www.petalumaadobe.com/educational/refS.pdf

http://coresuttersfort.weebly.com/uploads/8/6/8/9/8689417/period_clothing_part_two.pdf

http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/485/files/1840s%20clothing.pdf

http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/485/files/vaquero%20revised%203-13-12.pdf

between that, and picking up this weekend, "TimeLife Spanish West" and "TimeLife Cowboys"  and "75 years in California" by William Heath Davis, I'm hoping to figure something out.  that and I'm looking up for historical pictures of Southern California through New Mexico.  Mainly focusing on the southern Colorado Plateau, basically between Flagstaff, Az and Taos, NM... and Monterey, Ca to Santa Barbara into Los Angeles.

these are all my thoughts, and from tertiary sources, so if I'm on the wrong track, please critique:

from what I've read, it looks like wool would have been the easiest, because of sheep.  Muslin was often used for the native workers, and cotton was next most expensive.  Also, it seems the more bleached and whiter of the undergarments, the wealthier the individual wearing them.  This makes sense.

what I've found, leather, was very important, and actually easy to get in a way, because of the hide business that boomed throughout the area, the core $$ maker for the Vaqueros.  however, within that, it seems it was their money maker.  They'd rather sell it than use it themselves except where necessary: the seat of the pants (darker area on the "vaquero" pants), the Botas de alas, and then the rawhide used throughout their tack, and of course their saddle.

then actually Silk was cheaper than Satin/Velvet I guess? Basically Chinese immigrants vs getting stuff from Europe.  In a way, makes sense, but then again, it's kinda funny.  I do know now, they're both about equal for good high-quality stuff, about $25-$50 yard for example.

on that note, I'm debating moving my time-period up to late 1870s, early 1880s.  I love my Cap & Ball revolvers, and cartridge conversions.  I dunno, maybe after all the westerns and stuff, I've actually grown tired of seeing SAAs and want something "different."  

but on gun leather, as we are a shooting sport -

But I was thinking with Vaqueros, traditionally favoring the lance, sword, or knife over a gun, if they were to wear any, they're quite concealed.  I've seen pictures of them with their guns, none of them have them on display like other folks of their time-period.  So what I was thinking was a slim-jim holstered shoulder rig.  They'd peak out of the sides of my vest, and under the Vaquero type jacket, they'd barely be seen, keeping the classic silhouette in tact.  That and thankfully, from about 1877 onward, I have quite a few period pictures to base off of, and the paintings by James Walker... so the references are there

I'm thinking something like this original, for my brace of pistols.  Anytime I'm not shooting SASS however, I'll only carry one.

[St. George]

Here's my reply in reference to your 'lace' question, plus a bit more...

Rawhide was the 'go-to' item for repairs and lashings and pretty much everything, and naturally it found great use in lacing things together - often quite decoratively.

Saddlers did it in the process of building their saddles and tack - and holsters - cowboys did it to while away time when in camp or in winter, as they repaired various things, because once set, it wore like iron.

Not much of a stretch to find it on holsters - like the commercial one pictured resembles a late Heiser.

The Mexican holster you'd pictured features a style called 'Piteado' - the 'lace' being made from cactus fibers.

It decorated all manner of things, from the 'sombrero grande' to vests and horse trappings and anything else a vaquero or gentleman wore, and its use goes 'way' back into the 'real' Old West, when whang-leather tough men like them showed Americans how to 'cowboy'...

The history of the Vaquero is a rich and varied one - filled with dash, skill and Spanish-Indian cruelty.

They handled their horses in the Spanish manner, but they did handle them beautifully once they were trained - it's just that it was tough on the horse.

They were as proud as a Spanish grandee, too - and were quick-tempered - much preferring a blade to a pistol or revolver - and they redefined the term 'colorful' - they loved color and weren't afraid to wear it.

That sense of showmanship and love of color they passed on to the the American Cowboy, who bought spurs and sombreros and other trappings at the big Trade Fairs down in Chihuahua - and when he was all dressed up and trimmed, shaved and bathed after a visit to the tonsorial parlor, and with a clean new shirt, with his spur straps let out to the 'town hole' so the rowels and jingle bobs could 'sing' - you knew he was in town, and you could hear maidenly hearts flutter...

Vaya con Dios, Acaso...

Scouts Out!

[Willie Dixon]

Thanks St. George.

I always value your opinion, and I appreciate what you've done so far in this thread, let alone all the others I've read.  So it seems like I'm on the right track.  Getting too far into details though, I want to make sure I have the basics covered, so here are my ideas and concepts thus far:

A Spaniard whose family hails from Galicia - I'm picking this because I'm Irish, and we have plenty of similarities in our physical appearances, I also found out many people emigrated from Galicia to the New World during the late 17th and early 18th centuries for similar reasons as to the Irish.  Only problem with this, is it seems they mainly traveled into Central America, Argentina, Brazil, Panama, and those places, and less into the US... but I'm hoping there's still enough to make it plausible.

if not, I know plenty of people who wear kilts and do an excellent representation of Silver's Scottish Highland Regimental Broadsword that are in fact Japanese, Latino, etc (many of whom have bested me at my "family's art" in chivalric combat!).  They represent what they wish, and I'll do the same here.

basically, he's an American Citizen, that when the Mexican Cession of 1848 happened, his family became American Citizens.  Not really sure how that happened, but luckily I have dear family friends that can help me along.  They've been in California since the 1700s I believe.

I'm actually thinking of the birth-date for the Originals Class to be around 1848 given my age now.

first off, the simple stuff that won't change.

the guns and gun-rigs.

I'm thinking of a shoulder setup similar to Mr. Drayton Calhoun, unless I can find another that is more period correct with precedence:


basically, I'm thinking this for SASS, which it will function nicely.  I'm not concerned about muzzle-raking or the "cross draw" step as I'll adjust my draw accordingly, and if needed, I'll either raise or lower the harness to make it RO acceptable.  

basically, I'm just thinking something along the lines of Mr. Burrow's Texas Pattern, just with two holsters, one on either side instead of just the one.

however, I will be following "Packing Iron" for the holster for NCOWS and all other reenactment purposes


the rig itself will be stitched thusly:
 if I can find an original antique, all the better to base it upon, however I have found plenty of floral designs dating back to the 1840s onward through California Missions and Taos, and I know for the most part they transferred over.  So this is absolutely wonderful.  Thank you for helping me with this!

my guns, will be Colt Navy "customs" much like this one, so I can use it as reference:

I'm just wishing there was an easy way to get a Navy in the 5 1/2" barrel length and NOT be a .44.  I'm debating an Army instead for just this purpose.  Either that, or Pietta does make their "version" - using that loosely, of the NYPD Pocket Police Revolver... which in fact is a full-frame .36 6-shot 61 navy that happens to have a shorter, I think just over 5" barrel.  Those are very pretty.

Getting them "in white" so I can charcoal blue them, and color case-harden the frame, hammer, and trigger myself, and fixing up the minor problems with the grips will solve all ailments of the guns I think.

now, my question would be for the rifle?  Honestly, first thing that pops into my head is a half-stock cap-lock like Mr. Kit Carson had that's in his museum in Taos.  That makes me lean right on into my baby, the Spencer Carbine lol.  

would any of the Henry, Improved Henry, Spencer, or 73 be more prominent, aka easier to purchase than the others for a Vaquero in the Southwest?  

I'm trying to find shipment ledgers, but having some difficulty at the moment for anything outside of the regular places, Tombstone and Prescott being two of them.  But then again, in Arizona, they were two of the larger towns at the time, it'd make sense for them to have more "traffic."  In that regard, once the trains really came in, by the mid 1870s, there's ALOT of merchandise that traversed the great plains lol.

beyond that, again, luckily SASS isn't nearly as stringent, so I'm going with a SXS mule-eared Shotgun, and calling it good.  

[Willie Dixon]

now second, for the actual clothing:

I really like this hat, like in "Pale Rider"


however, the crown shape, although around the right height, and proper brim width, is a bit too flared maybe.  However, good ol' Jonny Ringo in "Tombstone" basically wore the right hat, and daresay, pretty much the whole kit:


then for the clothing, I'm thinking this for the nicest clothes for very formal occasions:


the overall cut looks about right, even though that show took place 50 or so years earlier.  I think I may need to adjust the lapel, but that'd be about it.  Basically in real heavy blue velvet with gold embroidery.  The shirt will be silk for that too, why not?

honestly that kit, is just seriously dreaming because I grew up watching that show with my Uncles.

for the semi-formal, nice attire, I'm thinking something along these lines, unless this was really for while on the range working lol

the pants will be made to match, keeping it looking more "formal" at least in my eyes.
for material, I honestly don't know.  A plush cotton corduroy looks great and feels amazing, maybe leather too.

now, for the working attire, I'm thinking this fine gent nails it

basically, I'm thinking something tough, like out of duck cotton, but still with some nice embroidery
maybe such as this:

I'm thinking color coordination like the gentleman in the brown coat, with green pants in this painting:


constants will be:
blindingly white shirt and long under-pants
thinking something along these lines as the material for the sash, cravat, and bandana a nice red silk jacquard

then the botas, I'll try to figure out a way to replicate the gorgeous "stamping" that was done.  Don't know how successful I'll be without going full-tilt.  Luckily, there'll be plenty of scrap to practice on.  I was also thinking of stitching some more Piteado on the upper flap?  I just think that'd be a gorgeous contrast.

my final question is the actual boots.

from my research, I've found boots like these actually:

which look an awful lot like these from Riverjunction:


they look super comfy, and I'm just wondering if that's really the right boot? if it is, sweet!

I know Fugawee makes a wonderful pair that are resoleable, so yeah... I'm okay with those.
http://www.fugawee.com/civil%20war%20shoes.htm

as far as the culture of the Vaquero... St. George, do you have a bibliography by chance on different texts that I may have missed thus far for all that?  In all honesty, that's the part that I enjoy and love more than anything.  Thanks bud!

[St. George]

If you adjust your birthdate to 1848 to reflect your current age of 31, then it's 1879, and you'd be carrying cartridge weapons by then, so you might want to reconsider.

There's no need to try to obtain a piece in the white - ever hear of 'Vanish' toilet bowl cleaner?

That'll do the job - the rest is up to you, though it's likely a waste of time and money to do the work on a repro - just de-farb it and re-blue it, because getting all that embroidery done will be expensive.

Shortened barrels weren't as common as today's C&WAS would have one think.

Not only did trains get there, but ships got there earlier and they supplied the trade with modern weapons fairly quickly - though trains made them a little cheaper because rail shipment was cheaper than sail or steam.

The hat will be a problem - no matter what you attempt to do, the ones pictured will always be 'Clint Eastwood' hats, and won't have the look you're going for, so see about getting a Stetson 'Boss of the Plains' and having is properly shaped and fitted by someone who knows how.

Chuck Burrows makes Botas - look into them - the bootees shown are fine.

The shoulder holsters...

To possibly replicate 'Piteado' - look to doing a similar heavy, machine embroidery pattern on a brown duck or thin buckskin, then gluing it over the holster body - Indians did a lot of beadwork on canvas, then sewed the canvas onto Cavalry gauntlets, so it can work.

Look too, at a supplier to various 'Charro' organizations - they still wear this, and much of it's still being made, but it's difficult to find a solid supplier, and being Anglo, it may be difficult for them to take you seriously.

Vaya con Dios,

Scouts Out!

[Willie Dixon]

St. George, thanks bud.

I know just who to make me the hat then, my good pard Delmonico! I've been wanting him to make me a hat anyways, and I know he's good. 

I hadn't thought of doing the lighter leather or fabric on the holsters, that isn't a bad idea.  As for the garb, believe it or not, I'm quite handy, and the patterns don't look to intimidating to me or my lass at all.  We've been making our own patterns for about six years now, and honestly between period drawings, tailor manuals, and what I now of the basic coat looking at others like RiverJunction's rendition, I feel pretty confident.

It'll be a lot of work, but that's the fun of it.  Right now, I have a slim jim floral carved from El Paso Saddlery with one of their SASS type hybrid belts rough-in with shotgun holds and cartridge loops for .45.  I've got a gorgeous modern Frock coat made by Chaps, some vests, shirts, etc, and square-toed boots.  Along with a wonderful Beaver Brand hat.

It's not anything close to what NCOWS would want or expect, let alone for the Originals Class.  However, for SASS it does just fine.  The costs of my rifles... yes, plural, on top of the pistols and shotgun... but seriously, mainly the rifles I love, the money is being spent there.

I've looked at Charro costumes, Mariachi costumes, etc.  I've drooled over their bikini holsters, boots, chinks, chaps etc all with some Piteado stitching   but honestly, I feel I can make them.  I'm pretty adept with my hands and patience is key.  I think making them will be 75% of the fun.

And I have the time unfortunately.  There's really no stalwart posse NCOWS presence here in Arizona.  I figure the Vaquero styled jacket and pants will be equivalent each to the time spent making my chain-stitched ionar for my Scottish persona, possibly quite longer, considering the heavier embroidery, but I got that together quite nicely in little under a month, taking my time.

As for my persona, it's easy enough to step back the date of my birth.  Easy-peasy.  I was just thinking the Colt SAA didn't really hit the general public until about 77 or so right? or am I mistaken?  I thought it was issued strictly to the US Military for quite a long time.

thanks again St. George, it's greatly appreciated.  I'll start making mock-ups here pretty soon hopefully.  My lady is off work the next couple days and we're going to be doing "fun projects" over the holidays I'm hoping I can squeeze in some vaquero time while we're at it.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

A while back, a Pard, Wadd Watson Ellis, had a gig as a docent in Northern California and went through a similar search. Here is my search that exposes most of it;

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=search2

[Willie Dixon]

thanks Sir Charles, I actually linked to Mr. Ellis' main thread up above.  Is there stuff elsewhere too?  For some reason your link isn't working.

beyond that, Mr. Ellis' docent was about 30 years earlier than what I'm doing, and also a different societal level than mine.  At least as far as I can tell.  His persona of a Californio could go up to and including Dons before the Mexican Cession.  They're the cream of the crop in the wealth and status department, whereas mine is more a higher level but still working type.

beyond that though, his research definitely was the start for mine, and a wonderful jumping off point.  Finding out my favorite artist was named James Walker being one of them

got some precedence on the dates of these paintings by James Walker.  Not going to lie, I cheat, my girl, she's an Art History connoisseur, and although it isn't what brings home the bacon, she's definitely a professional.  He began living in California and set up a studio in San Francisco in the early 1870s until his death in 1889 in Watsonville, Ca.

My main inspiration pictures I'll share here:

"Vaqueros at Roundup"


very important to me, and my persona
"Vaqueros in a Horse Corral"


and
"Roping Wild Horses"


via the Denver Art Museum, the painting of the Vaqueros fighting the bear is dated "about 1877"
http://creativity.denverartmuseum.org/1955_87/

whereas University California Berkeley has a slightly different date for it, 1876, which I'm leaning more towards as they have the original piece, donated by Mr. and Mrs. Reginald Walker.  It seems UC Berkeley had a wonderful exhibit which they shared in wonderously large pictures online: http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/Exhibits/bearinmind/.

"Roping the Bear at Santa Margarita Rancho" - 1776


"Vaquero" - 1885


and then there's an additional in the collection by Felix Octavius Carr Darley
"Native Californians Lassoing a Bear" - 1873


what's interesting about this picture, is they have rifles on their back! so yay, there's some evidence they did carry guns by this point.  I'll look more into Mr. Darley's history with my girl, she loves that kind of stuff, to see if maybe his paintings are more "historical."  

Now, on that note, Mr. Walker is one of the best references out there, no doubt, but no matter what he painted within his style is she would say, "a bit of a romanticism, in that he painted based on survivor's stories, and the grandiose stories created grandiose paintings."  Mr. Darley's look a fair bit more realistic, to my eyes.  One thing thinking about it culturally, is the guns.  I personally can say for a fact that for the most part Californios, Dons, Vaqueros, Rancheros, Mesteneros etc didn't like guns.  Not like we do, here on this forum.  We, as a communal group, like to share our "latest toy" or "look what I found" or "look what I saw!" type threads and posts, and they more often than not, have something to do with some cold blued steel.

Mr. Walker painted based on stories, and let's face it, how many of us have exaggerated that "catch" or "hunt?"  For example, Mr. Walker, being a painter of his day, and a mighty fine one, but still, does he have the horsemanship required, or the wherewithal or know-how to actually participantly observe the vaqueros actually rope a California Grizzly?  Me, I'd love to have been in that position, which is why I enjoy this so much and am doing what I can, now.  But at the same time, it takes a mighty brass pair of cajones to actually go out and rope a bear, let alone arrogant enough to think one that doesn't do that regularly could join the vaqueros and not get in the way, and possibly become a hindrance, or worse yet a threat to them!  So, it's safe to say, like with the period Civil War paintings, which share much the same style, the vaquero paintings may, I daresay have been painted with a slight hint of bias?

I'm wondering if this is why, in period photographs I can see the guns, leather and holsters, be they completely hidden or only partially exposed... and yet, same time-frame we don't see any in any of James Walker's paintings.

hence my excitement at finding Mr. Darley's work.  His do have at least rifles, looking quite like cap-lock muzzleloader if I may add.  They may not be, maybe a Sharps or other breech-fed type, but still, the sideplate and trigger are obvious.  It may be an "Improved Springfield" the 1866 true conversion trapdoor of the famous rifled musket.

and on that note, is this drawing:
"The Grizzly and His Captors" - 185? - (I like that lol)


on the gentleman in center, it appears he has a cap or even flintlock muzzleloading pistol in his sash. either he's protecting the side-plate and lock with the sash, or he could even be protecting it with a leather or canvas cover often found and read about.  Either that, or I'm wishful thinking and it's just the shadow of his shirt, and the sash lol.

I also found a source of the cactus thread to make my own Piteado:
http://www.piteadofino.com/piteado_fino_104.htm - very excited.  I'll probably by 100 meters or so, at least lol.  It's going to take quite a bit of practice before I place it on my jacket, botas, gloves, hat, and holsters.

[Willie Dixon]

hey y'all,

hope y'all had a Merry Christmas, and going to have a memorable Happy New Year!

I've been working on some concept sketches based on James Walker's paintings for my jacket:


this one is based on the "Vaqueros in a Horse Corral" posted above, the gent in the middle standing outside the corral:


I only have the back to go off of on that one, so I tried to make up the front as I went.

it's interesting, but the cut of the jackets in these paintings remind me of my medieval reenactment stuff, namely my chest armor, a corrazina and the undergarment that goes below, the "Charles DuBlois pourpoint"

here are some originals of those, to give y'all an idea of what I'm looking at:
Corrazina

Charles DuBlois Pourpoint


I gotta say, the cut looks very familiar.  Which is good, since I've built both of those already, and fight in them with rebated steel swords.  Luckily here, I won't be counting on that chaqueta for actual armor, per se, but it's interesting to see.

I'm actually wondering if the chaquetas were sewn in a like manner to the pourpoint.  Maybe not channeled and stuffed, but the cuts would work well for horse-work.  The arms have an amazing freedom of movement, yet it sits tightly on the body.  If one were to layer the jacket like the pourpoint, it's easy to see how that could give some armor to their jackets and vests.

right now I'm searching for Vaquero vests, and coming up a bit short.  All I've really been able to find is the pattern set from BuckarooBobbins:


which I'm sure is fairly accurate, but I'm trying to find extant primary examples to base mine off of.

In February, I'll be making a trip maybe to New Mexico, to Santa Fe and Taos in particular, to check out their museums.  Sometime in January/February, I'll be making a trip to California as well, through Santa Barbara up into San Jose and checking out those museums as well.  Hopefully I'll find something there.

[St. George]

Not sure why you'd find roping a bear to be unusual - cowboys did it, too.

They'd put a rope on anything with hair.

And in the painting 'Native Californians Lassoing a Bear' what you see is a carbine slung from a carbine sling - common before the American Civil War, and used by mounted troopers in America and on the Continent - that's what the little ring and bar on the side of the weapon is for.

Don't fool yourself - they liked firearms a lot and knives even more, but what you're viewing are those depictions of the 'romantic' parts of their lives, the - 'display' part that shows off their manliness - that furthered their image.

Having something showing that is as eminently practical as a sidearm might spoil that image.

Scouts Out!

[Willie Dixon]

St. George,

no offense pard, but to me, roping a bear in this day and age, let alone back then, seems unusual.  And if nothing else, quite dramatic and requiring an immense measure of skill.

beyond that, did you read my posts?

Don't fool yourself - they liked firearms a lot and knives even more, but what you're viewing are those depictions of the 'romantic' parts of their lives, the - 'display' part that shows off their manliness - that furthered their image.

Having something showing that is as eminently practical as a sidearm might spoil that image.

I'm talking about this here, because I state practically exactly that myself in my own findings.

Now, on that note, Mr. Walker is one of the best references out there, no doubt, but no matter what he painted within his style is she would say, "a bit of a romanticism, in that he painted based on survivor's stories, and the grandiose stories created grandiose paintings."  Mr. Darley's look a fair bit more realistic, to my eyes...

Mr. Walker painted based on stories, and let's face it, how many of us have exaggerated that "catch" or "hunt?"  For example, Mr. Walker, being a painter of his day, and a mighty fine one, but still, does he have the horsemanship required, or the wherewithal or know-how to actually participantly observe the vaqueros actually rope a California Grizzly?  Me, I'd love to have been in that position, which is why I enjoy this so much and am doing what I can, now.  But at the same time, it takes a mighty brass pair of cajones to actually go out and rope a bear, let alone arrogant enough to think one that doesn't do that regularly could join the vaqueros and not get in the way, and possibly become a hindrance, or worse yet a threat to them!  So, it's safe to say, like with the period Civil War paintings, which share much the same style, the vaquero paintings may, I daresay have been painted with a slight hint of bias?

I'm wondering if this is why, in period photographs I can see the guns, leather and holsters, be they completely hidden or only partially exposed... and yet, same time-frame we don't see any in any of James Walker's paintings.

I talk about the paintings being over-romanticized.  

I talk about the enormity, of the reality in roping a grizzly bear.  I'm not sure of your background, but I've been close to a Kodiak Grizzly, in the wild.  Let's just say we let him have my buddy's fish and "left."  And leave it at that!

to physically rope something of that size (I've read numerous reports that the California Grizzlies were no laughing matter in size, that they were indeed closer in size to the Kodiak than the black bear) would require massive amounts of bravado, skill, and courage.  I'd like to think something along the lines of what Mr. Durant says in season 1 of "Hell on Wheels" - "how do you get your pants on in the morning?"

basically, I'm thinking "unusual" in the thought process of it isn't exactly something one would do first thing in the morning, like getting a cup of coffee.  Or maybe it was for them!  I know me thinking about it now, it's an amazing feat regardless.

now I'm wondering if in fact, thanks to the loss of intonation in writing and text, if we're indeed arguing the same thing?  And in fact all you're doing is seconding my opinion?  I apologize if I come off harsh.  Maybe because of the holidays, or what-have-you, I'm a little disappointed in how lackluster this thread has been.  It's always fun to be excited about something and find others with similar interests.  It sucks when there isn't.

the way I see it, given my background, and given where I live, portraying a Vaquero type individual is a natural choice.  And one that I'm passionate and concerned with... particularly wanting to help inspire others in their style of horsemanship most importantly, and help share their rich culture and heritage second.  I just happen to see SASS, NCOWS, GAF, APS, etc as great fronts to do that in.

However, the lack of overall participation here has diminished that desire, almost to a stand-still, if it weren't for at least your responses St. George.  So please don't take me as being hostile towards you, but instead as a like-minded individual, excited almost to the point of making a fool of myself, sitting across the table from you with a warm cup of coffee in hand, enjoying similar interests and passions.

on that note, what do you think of my drawings?  The first one, I like very much, even though it isn't necessarily found in any paintings.  Not being able to find extant examples it seems, from the period, is hampering me.  Just last night, I was frustrated and venting with my friends how easy it is sometimes to find things from 5 centuries ago, in another part of the world via google, and yet, how I can't find the simplest jacket, vest, or pants from merely 150 years ago!

as for my personal thoughts on their disdain for firearms.  I take that in-context based on my family friends.  We were watching different Zorro movies and TV episodes.  My friend asked why Zorro didn't carry a gun, if it was for similar reasons to Batman.  Art basically smiled and told the boy "a true Spaniard, prides himself on his ability with a sword and his prowess of his movement with his feet.  Anyone can pull the trigger on a gun and kill someone.  Look at what happened to Wild Bill.  Or it just devolves into plain luck, someone's cap doesn't go off, the other's does.  It takes skill to face against a like-abled opponent.  One of equal or even greater skill than yourself."

yeah, it stared with Zorro and Batman, but I know Art was talking about his family and their traditions and why he felt Destreza was so integral into that society.

[St. George]

Check your PMs.

Scouts Out!

[Tascosa Joe]

Willie:  I am enjoying the thread but do not have anything intelligent to add.  So I try not to show my ignorance   I have read stories about cowboys roping bears all my life, I don't think they were grizzlies' though.  The last bear in the Texas Panhandle was roped and killed buy cowboys about 1906.  The location is now deep inside the city limits of Amarillo. 
Joe

[St. George]

Don't draw your historical references from 'Zorro' and 'Hell On Wheels' - they're just TV shows done for entertainment and not noted for an accurate reflection of the era.

And as for using 'Batman' as a reference - really?

Look instead, to a local (or perhaps a not-so-local) 'Museo Latino' and see if you can delve into their archives and tap their resources if at all possible.

A tip - small museums like that are always underfunded, so a small remuneration is appreciated for their time.

As to 'this day and age' - we're not talking about roping bears today - not with 'Risk Assessments' and 'Insurance' and a general fear amongst civilians to do anything that doesn't guarantee their complete safety, and the thought of waxing is actually contemplated.

We're talking about 'back when', during a time when men were men and women were grateful, and trusting the man you partnered with to back your play was a given.

The world was different for those men - they were kept busy carving out a new world so their ancestors could doubt their achievements and apologize for how they got to where they did, but 'back when' their world still offered promise, they could and did rope bears and longhorns and wolves and anything they fancied, and they did it because they could, and for them - it was fun.

Do not make the mistake made by so many by ascribing today's ideas and mores to those who have gone before and judging them to be somehow deficient when compared to a TV show or cartoon character - their world was different, and the lyrics in Radney Foster's song - 'Went For A Ride' sums it up well:

'It Wasn't Cowboys and Ponies - It Was Horses and Men.
It Wasn't  Schoolboys and Ladies - It Was Cowtowns and Sin'

Folks like those are what inhabited the life and times on both sides of the Border, all with the thinnest veneer of civilization carefully crafted and nurtured to create and further their own myths.

In your case - in the clothing you're hoping to replicate - they did it beautifully turned out, too.

Good Luck!

Scouts Out!

[Willie Dixon]

St. George,

got your pm pard.  Be ready for a reply back

as for the Batman reference, I said something about it in the PM in more depth, no worries pard.  But we were like 11-13 years old.  Art, I believe was just trying to influence us on the values of swordsmanship vs some jack-off with a gun.  That, and my friend, Mark is to this day, obsessed with Batman, and that's where that came from.

I just talked with Art this morning, and he said "it's a touchy subject, weapons are tools made for a reason.  By all means they had their rifles and pistols and knew how to use them.  But if they could use a rope, a lance or a sword instead, they would."

Tascosa Joe, feel free to add anything you wish, even a "hey!  That jacket looks cool!"  - any and all comments help pard! For example, out of the drawings I've posted, by me, or by James Walker and the others, if there's a particular outfit you admire, feel free to say so!

and that goes for anyone that reads this and doesn't post.  Honestly, I'm looking for a discussion, and by no means do I mind being the only one who knows the difference between a Charro, Vaquero, Buckarroo, etc in how they're defined today.  And the thing is, I doubt I am the only one, I know for a fact, St. George has a good head on his shoulders.

come on!!  Come all!!  There's a nice campfire, warm cawfee, and good drawings and talking about the old days.  I'm talking about 1830-1880s in the American Southwest, from Texas to California.  Talk about an era of CHANGE!  And I love ALL of it.  Please, by all means, contribute

now... the "Buckaroo Bobbins" Vaquero pattern... is that a good vest?
unfortunately my "go-to" technique on google, using the proper linguistic terminology is failing me lol.  All I'm getting actually is modern girl's denim vests and jackets.  Luckily with James Walker's paintings, we have good references for the jacket, but the vest is something else entirely.  I'm debating if they were worn that much?

cuz, we have about 8" of snow on the ground right now... and yeah, having a vest along with my jacket would be nice in January lol


and I like vests... there's something nice about a 3-piece set... something you don't see everyday anymore.

[pony express]

I've been following this too, but like Tascosa Joe, I really don't know enough about the subject to add anything.

I know what you mean about google searching for patterns, though. I was wanting to make up a US Sailor outfit for 1914, ever try searching for sailor uniform sewing patterns? Results were(approximately); Girl's school uniforms "sailor outfit" 3,247,745,846,846 results, actual military sailor uniform patterns: 0  That is, unless you count costume patterns of somewhat dubious historical accuracy.....

[Willie Dixon]

pony express, I have something for you then bud.  Here's a link to my pinterest board relating to tall-ships and sailing:

http://www.pinterest.com/tanukidomo/nelsons-navy/

A lot of it is earlier than that, by alot but the links should help clear the path as it were at least.  Here's hoping anyways.

I used to do historical reenactment with tall ships in SoCal.  We kept it as legit as we could, particularly for the Royal Navy side of things

hope it helps you out bud!

[Professor Marvel]

My dear Willy -
I have been following this thread with great interest. When you come to NM try to make sure to plan enough time to stop
at the history museum in Albuquerque (The Albuquerque Museum - you might call ahead and see if they have specifics in your field of interest, and/or other recomendations) , but especially the historic re-enactment farm outside of Santa Fe - El Rancho de las Golondrinas is a Spanish Colonial living history museum/ranch located on 200 acres in a rural farming valley just south of Santa Fe, New Mexico.

Tanuki Domo? Seriously?
So desu ka ... Kendo, Iaido, Aikido, Nogaku ...
I see we share many interests beyond CAS. I once wrote a lengthy monograph on Yokai and other supernatural Japanese entities, and another on the historically correct Sengoku Jidai Era garments portrayed in Inuyasha...

yhs
Prof ( Ryotetori Tenchinage) Marvel

[Willie Dixon]

Professor Marvel,

indeed it seems we do share other like-interests.  I practice Yagyu-Shinkage Ryu kenjutsu.  But within that, I practice Aikido, Iaido, and Kendo.  Unfortunately where I'm now located, it's much on my own self-discipline, along with a dear friend that is twice my age and about equally surpassing me in experience as well, but I was well-trained and keep my arts sharp.

I also enjoy the period correct suikan kamashimo minus the fact his "puff balls" are missing on Inuyasha's garb to portray he came from an earlier era.  My specialty in research is the Kamakura period and the Mongol invasions of Japan.  I'm currently working on my kebiki-odoshi haramaki dou for combat  

I'm also on the tousando proboards often enough, when I'm not over here

the tanuki comes from my girl's grandfather.  We were discussing how my Dine friend said that my totem, was a Badger.  Grandpa Naoki laughed and said, "yep, tanuki fits you as well."  So yeah... I carry those with the burden they deserve but also pride.

beyond that, and back more-so on this topic at hand, I have found a veritable "gold mine" in bibliographical research for the mid 1800s in California.
http://www.nps.gov/goga/historyculture/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&PageID=387314

here is the title of the paper written:
http://www.nps.gov/goga/historyculture/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&PageID=387300

and where it can be found:
http://www.nps.gov/goga/historyculture/publications.htm

although this paper deals more with the Native American Tribes, particularly the Ohlone/Costanoan Indians, the missions and the Spanish definitely affected the native populations in California, and indeed my Franciscan and Dominican friends still carry that burden to this day whenever someone wishes to "preach" to them.  It still deals with the time-period I'm focusing on, and more importantly the bibliography-

all those texts stacked up on a table right now, if one can picture it, would be momentous in size and scope, and to me worth far more than gold of similar weight.

I have most of those texts now saved thanks to the Gutenberg project on my kobo

here is my list of readings thus far, and for now, I think will suffice until I'm done reading them all hopefully by the end of this month:

now, all of these I have found via the Gutenberg library and Kobo.  However, I'm using links to Amazon for ease of finding them in case for whatever reason they become hard to find in Kobo's search function due to some of their lack of special keywords.

Reminisces of a Ranger: http://www.amazon.com/Reminiscences-Ranger-Southern-California-Frontier/dp/0806131527 by Horace Bell.

Three Years in California: http://www.amazon.com/Three-years-California-Walter-Colton/dp/1425589537 by Walter Colton

and then the collection of texts by Hubert H. Bancroft:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubert-Bancroft-California-Pastoral-1769-1848/dp/B000TYDII8/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420164732&sr=1-12&keywords=The+History+of+California+Hubert+H+bancroft

http://www.amazon.com/WORKS-HUBERT-HOWE-BANCROFT-California/dp/B0014JZBXM/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420164732&sr=1-11&keywords=The+History+of+California+Hubert+H+bancroft

http://www.amazon.com/History-California-1-1542-1800/dp/B000TTK2Q4/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420164732&sr=1-10&keywords=The+History+of+California+Hubert+H+bancroft

The "History of California: Volume I" is particularly of interest, in that the subsequent volumes, most of which I could not find on Amazon, are available via Kobo and Volumes III through VII are particularly good covering III: 1825-1840,  IV: 1841-1845, V: 1846-1848, VI: 1849-1859, and VII: 1860-1890

also they are available via the Internet Archive as well: https://archive.org/details/bancrohistofcali23huberich

so yeah I have lots of reading to do!  I'll start posting later on this week about my findings in each text, luckily in Kobo it's actually fairly easy to annotate texts, and I'll basically share things on my findings via chapters I think... I'm worried if I go by subject matter, things may get a bit intense and the references themselves could become hard to find.

I also just recently found these via links I have above:
http://www.petalumaadobe.com/educational/costumeS.pdf

http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/474/files/petaluma%20adobe%20shp%20elp%20teachers%20handbook%20cmprsd.pdf

here:
http://www.siwcostumers.org/newsletterarchive/VirtCostV10-I1-2012.pdf

http://www.siwcostumers.org/newsletterarchive/VirtCostV10-I1-2012/VirtCostV10-I1-2012_13-don.pdf

definitely excellent resources, albeit for an earlier time period than the one I wish to portray, but it's great nonetheless.