thughts on fire forming

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Taking the good advice I am fire forming .44 -40 cases to shoot in my 1860 .45 Colt Henry and cut back on the blow back. So far with that "heathen powder" it seem to be working well, and the lifter stays shiny bright, but now comes the time to use HOLY BLACK which I intend to use in SASS matches.

The powder being used is FFFg some loaded with Du Pont, some with Curtis and Harvey and some with GOEX which cleaned out all the odd lots of powder in my powder bunker. From now on I will use either GOEX or KIK powder.

I have two loads ready to shoot when the weather permits. For the rifle I have loaded 30 grains (1,6c/c) under a 200 grain Big Lube® bullet. Not enjoying beating up my arthritic wrists I loaded 20 grains (1.3 c/c)   under a wad cut from an orange juice box, and a homemade lubricated felt wad and a .454 ball seated and crimped in place.

My question is am I on the right track here?  Both loads do wrinkle the case slightly when being loaded but the wrinkles straighten out when fired. All the loads are slightly compressed.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I realize it would have been simpler to get a .44-40 in the first place, but I got what was available and waited 3 months for it.

Respectfully submitted

Bunk

[rifle]

If the loads wrinkle the cases when loaded there is something to try. Expand the cases with an expander die that expands the case mouth more than usual or a neck size only sizing die from Meacham Tool and Hardware that can be had with different sizing bushing rings inside (interchangeble so one neck size only die can be used with different size bushings).

The neck sizing dies with the bushings are designed to work the brass less for brass longevity and give the loader what size they want. Got from Meacham Tool and Hardware.
The neck size only dies can be had also from C&H/4D in Mt. Vernon Ohio with interchangeable expanders of the loaders choice.

One type uses sizing bushings to size the neck only and the other sizes the case mouth after regular sizing toget the case mouth a certain size.

What I'm saying is that if the mouth of the fire formed case is opened more than usual the case won't wringle when seating the bullet.

I assume there's a chance the neck size only bushing die or the neck size only regular die with a certain size expander won't wrinkle the cases. The Meacham Tool neck size only with the different size bushings working the brass less would be my choice.

The C&H/4D neck size only would size the neck less and open it less. The die would have to be made to minimum size the brass first then expand it less than usual. C&H will make the die so the initial neck sizing is minimal so the expander will work minimal. Call and tell them what you are doing and what you want. Fire formed brass,neck sized minimal so expanded little or not at all really. They can make the die neck size what you want so the expander may just be making sure the brass is nice and round.

You'd want to end up sizing the case mouth about a .001 inch less than the bullet size OR make the case mouth the exact size as the bullet used. Neck tension on the loaded cartridge would be less but enough and the crimp would hold the bullet enough.

Anywhooooo.....get away from that by annealling the brass. Not hard. Use a square pan and make rows of brass. Leave a little space between. Put water in the pan up to where the neck needs annealed or to where the cases don't want to float and tip over.

Use a propane torch and play the flame on each case as you go down the row. Just hit the one side of them. Then turn the pan and do all the other sides.

Don't want to over do it with the heat. Don't need the Templex stick stuff to gauge the temp. Just use a good light and see.....when the color just begins to show a tiny bit. You don't want color. Just watch for the case to start to change and get the heat off it and do the next and the next. If you get color throw the case away.

You don't have to tip the cases over after they are heated if you get the heat off soon enough.

Neck size the cases minimal after you anneal them. You may not need to anneal after every firing.

What do ya thunk?

[Roosterman]

I have shot BP in a '73 in .45LC for years. I get a little blow back but it's not a big deal. I think somebody has been pulling your leg. Use a 250gr bullet and a tight roll crimp, should keep your blow back to a minimum.

[Blair]

Roosterman,

That has been pretty much my finding as well.
I shoot three rifles and four revolvers all in 45 Colt, that 27 chambers total and I can't say I have an issue.
My best,
Blair

[Navy Six]

I have shot BP in a '73 in .45LC for years. I get a little blow back but it's not a big deal. I think somebody has been pulling your leg. Use a 250gr bullet and a tight roll crimp, should keep your blow back to a minimum.


I had a Uberti 66 with 24" barrell in 45 Colt. Load was 35gr. FF Goex, 250gr bullet lubed with SPG, firm crimp on Winchester brass. After one stage of 10 rounds, the carrier started getting sticky. After the second stage (and each successive stage) I had to hose the carrier down with Ballistol or the lever was difficut to manipulate. I don't know why each of us can get such different results using similar equipment. I noticed the problem was worse in cold weather as a club I shot with here in NJ held matches in the winter.
That gun is now a 38-40 and my problems have ended.

[jimbobborg]

If the brass is wrinkling when you seat the bullet, you either have the crimper too far down or the brass is too long.  Have you measured the brass length versus the .45 Colt brass you have?  I've had this happen when I switch between virgin Winchester brass and twice loaded Remington 32-20 brass.  Once the Winchester brass got stretched from a couple of firings the two sets of brass are the same length, or close enough so I don't have to change the seating die setting.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

No more wrinkled cases. I changed my system for expanding the .44-40 case mouth to .454 which I will not go into.
It is a long and tedious process, but I have not ruined a case in the last 100 I have done.

It took some 180 gr bullets cleaned of the petroleum lube and re lubed with SPG and my home made beef tallow clone. The bullet was short enough to just fit in the expanded neck area and had room for a stiff charge of  FFFg which did a dandy job of expansion. I don't have the dope at hand but I think it was 1.9c/c compressed slightly.
Those formed cases are just a little shorter that .45 Colt cases so I had to re set all the dies in my Dillon press to properly seat and crimp the shorter case.
The reloaded cases easily hold a good charge of  FFFg and (1.3c/c I think) and a 200 gr. Big Lube® bullet, and  run through the 1860 Henry with no problems.
Bunk

[rifle]

The 44/40 cases have thin brass at the necks. That would be thinner if expanded fire form to 45 size. I'd thunk if the case necks were expanded closer to the size of the 45 bullet or just neck sized less so they are closer in size to the bullet the crumpling/wrinkling when seating the bullets would stop.

Annealing every so often would offset the fact the brass work hardens some every firing. Working the case necks less one way or the other works the brass less too. I'm just sayin.......The neck size only dies with the different size sizing bushings/rings from Meacham Tool are just the thing to control the amount of working to the brass. If needed or just wanted the expander dies from C&H/4D in Mt. Vernon Ohio can work along with the bushing type neck size dies. You know....make it easier to get the bullets in the thin brass and work hardening the brass less. Do alittle annealing now and then. Adds to the experience. More finesse to the loadin experience.

The "easy seater" Meacham Tool sells that is the best seater fer loadin the bullets in the brass straight can be a help too. A bullet directed into the case straight shoots  better and wrinkles cases less too I'd be a-thunkin.  When a bullet is too tight goin in the brass it doesn't go in eactly straight. May not see it eye-ballin but it's true and can sometimes be seen by lookin in the light right and seeing a slight bulge on one side of the case right where the bottom of the bullet is.  You see that often enough in the factory 45/70 ammo.
The industry dies made aren't real good actually when it comes to seatin bullets real straight when there's too much neck tension to the sized cases since the amount the cases are sized is all over the place. The size of the sized neck doesn't always act complimentary to the bullet size. Neck tension too tight sometimes. It's good to be able to control the neck size according to the bullet size. Just sayin....
Just the thing fer the rifles reamed a lil large in the chambers as long as the chambers aren't so large as to split the brass.

If the "Easy Seater" can't be had in pistol cartridge then the RCBS seat die with the micrometer adjustment would be alright to use to load bullets straighter in the cases.


Some rifles with large chambers may be better served usin the smokeless powder.

[john boy]

Use a 250gr bullet and a tight roll crimp, should keep your blow back to a minimum.

Plus skip the grits or down loaded charges.  The cases without fire forming will seal to the chamber wall generating minimum blow black

I can tell when working the Unloading Table, smokeless cases as black as burnt toast ... for those using fillers or downloading 45 Colts.