How to use the Sight ladder on Trapdoor Carbine?

[Doug.38PR]

I get how it works.  But what kind of ranges should it be used for?  I take it you tip your front sight up to the adjusted sight on the ladder to account for bullet drop at longer ranges.   The .45-70 is an actual rifle cartridge and has long range capabilities.

How do you know what to set it for (beyond just trial and error)?  Any videos or demonstrations? 

Everytime I flip mine up, I think of Augustus McCrae using it on his Henry to reach a...long haired chicken in Lonesome Dove. 

[Pitspitr]

Is yours a carbine or a rifle? An original or a reproduction? If it's an original which version of the sights do you have?

If you have an original in the earliest variation of the sight, and you are using the factory original loading ie. 70gr 2F BP behind a 405 gr bullet in the rifle or 55gr BP in a carbine, slide the ladder forward so that it rests on the 1st step up that is marked 2 for 200 yds 3 for 300yds ect. Stand the ladder up and use the markings on it for the longer ranges 5 for 500yds up to I believe it is marked 12 for 1200 yds

I know there are publications that detail the use of the Buffington Sight but I don't have references. If you need more info St. George is a wonderful contact.

[Blair]

Pitspitr,

Good reply to a question that needs a great deal more info from the OP to answer properly!
My best,
Blair

[Drydock]

https://the4570book.com/

[Doug.38PR]

My gun:  Pedersoli Springfield Trapdoor Carbine reproduction.  I shoot 405 gr cast lead bullets.   I don't have access to my reloading books and equipment off the top of my head but I typically load with either easy Trailboss powder or....an Alliant powder that I can't recall the name of.   

For the moment, that's all the additional info I can give y'all.

[Pitspitr]

Hi Doug
Ok
Pedersoli makes a good gun that is capable of better shooting accuracy than I am (at least my 2 are), but they aren't going to fool a collector into thinking they are an original (that wasn't what they are made for) Their sharps line will shoot with originals and American made reproductions IF their sights are replaced with higher quality sights. That said I checked and it appears that Pedersoli actually did go to the trouble of making different sights for their carbines and their rifles, which is as it should be. Their sight is similar to the early rear sight I described above. The only thing is, if I remember correctly, the steps on the rifle are of different heights than the originals are. I know the front sight is taller. This will combine to make the POI different from the original sights.

Your load will create another problem (not that Trailboss or alliant is bad. I use Trailboss in mine too) in that it's velocity will be different than the original loading and so the trajectory of the bullet will be different.

The original sights were regulated to match the trajectory of the bullet with a very specific load as determined by Col. Bull and the boys at the Springfield Armory shooting thousands of rounds at different distances. (As a side note Col. Bull designed the Bull rear sight used on some of the Trapdoor Long Range models and, as I understand it, is the guy the term "bull barrel" is named after)

If you had an original and were using the original loads you could set your sights as I described above and be pretty sure of hitting your target. As it is you're going to need to do some experimenting and keeping notes.

Realistically, you're shooting a carbine with reduced velocity loads. You're probably not shooting over 200 yds anyway and at 200 just leave the sights alone and hold over. If I were you and you are serious about shooting out past 200 I'd probably replace the rear sight with an original carbine sight (they're marked "C") file down the front sight so that it more closely matches an original's height and then load some BP cartridges to mimic the original .45/55/405 carbine load as listed in the book Drydock referenced in the link above.

If there's any chance you can make it to the Grand Muster this summer I'd be happy to help you with it and we will have targets set out to 400 yds so that you could experiment.

[St. George]

I'm really not getting into the modern end of this - my expertise lies in originals - but at C&WAS distances, there's not a lot of challenge involved, so get zeroed and hold over.

Original 'C'-marked Carbine rear sights are damned difficult to locate, and are expensive when found - some folks will buy a shelled-out original Carbine just for the rear sight and throw on an 'R'-marked Rifle rear sight to sell it.

Plus - folks fake them - re-marking the 'R' and engraving a 'C' along with new elevation marks, so knowing exactly what you're looking at, or knowing that you can trust the seller to know is critical when looking for esoteric parts.

Scouts Out!

[Pitspitr]

...at C&WAS distances, there's not a lot of challenge involved, so get zeroed and hold over.

Good Point St. G
It also brings up something else to mention. The '73 Springfield like most other open sighted rifles I've shot is "on" at about 13yds when it's zeroed at 100yds. (This does not apply to AR's and other rifles where the sight plane is considerably higher the axis of the bore) Past 13yds the POI appears to raise until you get out to about 50yds where it starts dropping. At most CAS ranges this isn't too much of a problem, but if you're engaging longer CAS targets such as GAF targets (we tend to set them out a little farther) and aiming for the top half of the target it can be enough to cause high misses. I forgot about this 2 years ago at the Grand Muster on the first few targets of the first stage and it bit me in the 4$$!

[Doug.38PR]

I see.

I like the effect of Black Powder (poof, a cloud of smoke) in these old type guns.  And apparently it generates results that the gun was geared for.   However, the closest thing I have to black powder is Clean Shot powder (never can remember what it's called now)...and I refuse to shoot that junk in any of my cartridge loading guns.

I put about 30 rounds loaded with Clean Shot (or whatever it's called now) in .45 LC through my Ruger New Vaquero...that gun started getting grunked up so bad after the first 20 shots that I could barely cock it.  Then, after having thought I'd cleaned it thoroughly, a few weeks ago I took the ejector rod housing off and saw a tad of surface rust or reddish discoloring around where it enters the frame as well as where the cylinder rod comes in and out.  That stuff gets everywhere and grunks up everything....probably even need to take the entire gun apart and clean it from the inside too.  

That being said, I'm certainly not going to put Clean shot through my Uberti Schofield or Pedersoli Trapdoor Carbine.  

Real Black powder seems to be a little difficult to come by.  I can't find it in any sporting goods store where I live.  But does it gum stuff up like the Clean Shot powder does?  I'm told the answer is "No"

[Pitspitr]

I've never used clean shot so can't make a comparison. I did have better results with true BP than with Pyrodex.

I can't find true BP locally either. I order it through http://www.powderinc.com/

[Trailrider]

One thing to keep in mind is that the original Trapdoor Springfied rifles and carbines were sighted for something like (can't locate the exact figures right now) 324 yds and 228 yds respectively with the original sights (M1873R and M1873C and M1879R and M1879C).  The trajectories of the .45-70-405 cartridge and the .45-55-405 round were such that the arms shot 15-18" high at 100yds depending on what loading was fired in which arm, with the lowest sight settings. What complicates things, especially on the original carbines is that some of the company commanders requested and were issued rifle ammunition with possibly a change of the rear sights to the rifle sights. M1873 carbines especially are often found with the rifle sights. Some (most) collectors tend to retrofit any carbines that have the "R" rear sight with the "correct" "C" sight. This may be okay, but it is altering history for that arm. Whether putting a rifle rear sight on a carbine that was shot with rifle ammo would have compensated for the different trajectories of the two rounds or not, I couldn't say. The original sights were installed at the arsenal with slotless screws. When you find rifle sights on the carbines you will find the screws have slots in the heads. In most instances, M1873 carbines (s/n below 50,000) found with rifle rear sights will also have had their thin wrist, short comb stocks replaced with the thick-wrist, long comb M1877 stocks. If they have the earlier stocks, the chances are they left Army control with a deserter and probably have carbine sights. Those that stayed under Army control most likely received the field or arsenal modifications.  I have no idea what the modern repros have for sights, even if they look like the originals.

[sail32]

Pedersoli Trapdoor Springfield's are top quality.

Get a copy of Wolf's book, "Loading Cartridges for Original 45-70 Springfield", as Drydock suggests = https://the4570book.com/

Extra sights are available from = http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/TrapdoorSights.html

The sights from Al Fresca are easy to exchange and he is a good person to deal with.

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/

I had a Pedersoli rifle and added the 1879 sight,