10 gauge cowboy loads?

[Bibbyman]

Federal 10 gauge plastic hulls are available in a lot of places.

Google "federal 10 gauge hulls".

Yes,  I can buy new hulls.  I'm looking for once fired hulls.

[Bibbyman]

Does anyone have experience with Cheddite 10 gauge hulls? Good or bad?  I've got Winchester 209 primers. Will they work ok in the Cheddite huoos?

That's what is available new that I can walk in and pick up. $61 / 100 before tax.

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Bibbyman
There are lots of Goose Hunters that use 10 gauge . Most don't reload , if you know any Hunters they would probably give you there hulls . But they wont be brass hulls .

[Bibbyman]

There are a few goose hunters around here but most have gotten rid of the 10 gauge in favor of the 12 gauge 3-1/2" mag.  Those with 10 gauge don't tend to bring back their hulls.

I contacted yet another person who I suspended has a 10 gauge for turkey hunting.   He says he has some hulls and will give me some - sometime this week.

My son lives north of Minneapolis and has two 10 gauge shotguns.  He has some empty hulls and I'll see him over Christmas, most likely.  Lots of goose hunters up there so he may be able to scrounge some somewhere.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Does anyone have experience with Cheddite 10 gauge hulls? Good or bad?  I've got Winchester 209 primers. Will they work ok in the Cheddite huoos?

That's what is available new that I can walk in and pick up. $61 / 100 before tax.

Without personal knowledge, my strong hunch is that the W-W 209s would work.  Make sure that you tell the gunshopguy, that this is a condition, and a fail will mean that you will return them.

https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120105073917AAhh9R3

I found this forum from the UK, with discouraging words about Cheddite 10 ga. hulls. MAYBE THE BLAME IS MORE ON CHEDDITE PRIMERS THAN THE HULLS?

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=219164

[Bibbyman]

I happened onto that topic in the duck hunter's forum.  The problem is that the participants are striving for steel shot loads from hell - not sissy black powder cowboy loads. From what I gather the Cheddite hulls require the larger primer.

When I discovered that Winchester 209 primers would slip in and out of RIO hulls, I presented the evidence to the gunshop guy.  He was in disbelief. But then he said he used Cheddite primers for all his reloading.

[Bibbyman]

Are large pistol primers harder to pop than shotgun primers?

I've been function testing the firing pins, hammers and related parts to see if they are doing their job using the brass cases loaded with fresh Winchester LP primers..  I get reliable results on the right barrel.  But initially was not getting any primers to pop on the left barrel.  The pin made a substantial mark but not set it off.  The hammer spring feels the same weight on both sides. The hammer falls smoothly.  The pin could be pushed far past the breach face. 
Sometimes the left barrel primer will pop on the second strike.  If not the second, it's not going to.  I'm thinking the big firing pins are too blunt for pistol primers and the strike force distributed over a larger area.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I think the gun needs a health check.                  I don't see any difference in setting off either primer.

Regarding the brass cases and Large Pistol primers; When cartridges were in development the only powder was the true gunpowder, and primers were the same as rifle ammo. On the conversion to smokeless it was found that it wasn't so easy to set off. That led to the development of specific shotgun primers ending up with the common 209.

Magtechs and LP primers are OK for black powder. For smokeless they usually work, but might be marginal. Doublegunshop used to sell magtechs converted to 209 that left the primer only partially supported. The remedy was to insert a nylon ring in the bases of the case. I have heard of folks drilling out Magtechs to accept the 209, but I can't say whether it worked or not.

There are turned cases that use regular 10 gauge wads. They are expensive, and still use LP primers.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/10_Gauge_Shotgun_Hulls_it-1084272.aspx?CAT=3832

[Bibbyman]

I have these 7 brass hulls that are old but never used.  I reprimed a couple just to check out the health of the old shotgun. 

In testing with heavy loads, when the primer goes of, the powder ( Grafs 2F) goes off too. It's to get the primer to go off reliability is the problem.



Another condition that may be part of the problem is that I don't have a proper priming tool.  I just put the primer on a hard surface and tap the case over it. The primer is not below the surface.   I know that primers set flush can cause problems in rifles and handguns.

[Bibbyman]

After sleeping on it,  I decided to do some measuring.   

The primer pocket old WRA brass is .130 deep.  I checked a couple different handgun case primer pockets and they ran .118-.120 deep.  I checked some 50/70 brass that is some 20 years old and the primer pocket were .130 also.  So... these old brass cases probably are made to use large rifle primers.

Maybe by using the shorter large pistol primer in a rifle depth pocket and  only getting it flush, the firing pin is making a good dent in the primer but only pushing the anvil forward and not crushing the compound. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

If LR or LRmag primers can be seated flush, give her a try.

One at a time to start, and NO other components for the first one.

[Bibbyman]

Your comment about the early shotgun cases using the same primer as the rifle got my wheels a turning.  (Old and slow and rusty wheels.) I've found that these brass cases I have, WRA RIVAL, were available from 1884 to 1929.  So they're probably collector items.  But stand a good chance of needing large rifle primers - aa my measurements indicate. I just assumed they requested large pistol primers because that's what I see are to be used in the new Magtech brass cases.

And yes,  I've just been trying to pop primers with the exception of the heavy load I shot off to test the old gun.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

My reference for American shotguns and their ammo is The American Shotgun, 1973, David F. Butler, ISBN 0-876910104-1

Page 184; "In fact, [smokeless] shotshell primers normally require twice the priming charge of [shotshells loaded with black powder[."  Bracketed words are mine.

At page 179, Fig. 8-6 shows a typical Winchester brass shotshell case of the 1880s with an "early style primer" with a pocket depth of .150 and diameter of .200.  On the same page, reference is made to a Remington catalogue of the 1880s, listing their brass shotshells as accepting the following primers; Remington No 2, Winchester No. 2, or Western No.2 1/2. Manufacture of brass cases by Remington continued until 1957, with deliveries up to 1965.

[Bibbyman]

Thanks for the background info.  Hopefully,   I'll score some plastic hulls from the many sources that say they can get me some.  And then I can try all over.  For now,  I've got the gun apart doing some stock repair.   This is a project to work on on these cold, short days so I tinker a bit and then put it aside.

As we get out and about,   I'm going to keep my eye out for old loading tools - looking in flea markets,  etc.  I may luck onto  some usable tools at an economy price if the owners don't know what they are. 

[Bibbyman]

I've been doing some glass bedding and crack repair on the stock so I've not got around to shooting it any more.

I did get some loaded 3-1/2" magnum turkey loads donated to me for the project.  I cut one down to 2-5/8".  I was surprised to find it loaded with fiber wads instead of plastic cup.   The flake powder looked like Unique but larger.  I dumped it. 

Another shock is that the chambers of the old gun are deep enough to chamber the 3-1/2" shells!  Obviously, I'm not even contemplating shooting a 3-1/2" shell in this old gun!

This morning I took the firing pins out and compared them. It's difficult to see any difference in the two.  They measure very close to the same except for length.  The one that sometimes wouldn't pop a primer in .010 shorter than the other.  But considering they will protrude through the face more than an 1/8", I can't believe the length should be a problem.

I did find a packed layer crud between the spring and the flat face of what I'll call the tumbler - (the shaft the hammer turns on).  When the hammer is at rest position, the flat spring is on a flat on the tumbler.   When the gun is fired, the hammer had to have enough momentum to overcome this rest position and continue on to strike the firing pin. Then it rebounds to rest.  I cleaned out the layer crud and installed the longer of the two firing pins in this side.  I just tested it with on primed case and it fired. 

[Bibbyman]

I test fired the left barrel today.  All went well. I see no damage.   I had swapped the firing pins from right and left.  Now the left barrel fires and right doesn't.   I fired 4 more loads.  The right barrel wouldn't fire the brass hull with pistol primer (but there was an adequate dent in primer).  It did fired the plastic shell loaded with shotgun primer.  So it looks like the failure to fire moved with the firing pins.

I may luck out.  Local gunshop was opened by an old scrounger.  His daughter and son-in-law run it now.  The owner says he has a box of old shotgun firing pins.  He may just have a replacement.

[rickk]

If you cant find the firing pin locally, check with this guy...

http://www.gunsnparts.com/

He has contracts with many police departments to get rid of their "finds" and the deal is that he has to take the guns apart and destroy the receiver.   He has an amazing amount of used parts and seems to know exactly where everything is somehow.

[Bibbyman]

Thanks for the contact.   

I've talked to the local gunstore who said they have a box of old shotgun firing pins.  He looked and came up empty.   He then remembered loaning them to an old gunsmith that does some work for him.  He said he'd get with the gunsmith and get them back.   I've checked back twice and it's slipped his mind but was committed to getting them back.   That's the way this project goes.

I have fired it with plastic hulls that are primed with 209 primers and they have all worked.   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

That it fires with 209 primers sounds good. Do you have plastic cases to reload? You can shoot with glued-in O/S cards.

[Bibbyman]

I have 7 brass and two plastic hulls.  This morning I loaded all 9 with 7/8 oz shot, square load of Grafs 2F black, fiber wads.  I used school glue to hold top card in place.  I had a couple of misfires with brass hulls on right barrel but plastic hulls with 209 primers all fired in right barrel.  I reloaded the hulls and fired most through right barrel.   Only one out of seven brass hulls failed to fire.  So maybe it'll keep improving.

Here is a link to YouTube video taken by SJ1000 action cam.