Shoulder Holster For CCW

[USBP1969]

Howdy,

I am looking for info in regards to a good shoulder rig for 4 3/4" .45 Smoke Wagon.  I have been using both a good Outside Waistband holster as well as an Inside Waistband holster worn out side the waist band, but under the belt.  Both work well, but I'd like to get the 40oz. off my belt if possible.

If any of y'all have had experience (good or bad) with shoulder rigs for CCW I'd sincerely appreciate your input.

Respectfully,
-kent

PS - I have worn a variety of side arms over the years CCW such as a 1911 Colt, Model-36 S&W, Model-10 S&W 2" and a Glock-19.  I just happen to have a real love for the 1873 Colt or a copy thereof and, being retired I now have no regulations to follow.

[hp246]

Retired LE.  Personally I've never had any success carrying a large frame revolver or semi-auto in a shoulder holster.  There may be some custom stuff out there that is better, but I always found them uncomfortable.  Too much weight on one side and you feel out of balance with the straps cutting into your shoulders or armpits, or balancing your self by adding even more weight to the other side. 

I found that a key to carrying a large frame handgun on the waist is to use an appropriately heavy duty belt for support.  In my old age, I carry a small light gun everyday.  I keep a P220 in custom holster especially made for car carry when I have to go to the really bad areas.  Good luck. 

[St. George]

I've carried M1911A1s and M9s (and other things) in shoulder rigs a very long time - but they've been carried under BDU/ACUs and in nylon rigs my Riggers made for me and the guys on my teams, and they were balanced on the off-side by spare loaded magazines.

Over time, one develops headaches and really tight shoulders...

I've also used drop rigs and kidney rigs that were quite comfortable - all being balanced on their off-side by similarly-weighted gear.

For jumping, the shoulder rig is the most comfortable of all - and that's probably the best test I can think of.

As an aside - while an effective round, a SAA for CCW isn't the best of ideas - it's big and it's slow to get into action and to reload under pressure.

This may not seem like much - you may think you're fast enough - but bad guys all carry high-capacity stuff and that's who you're defending against and not some similarly armed individual with a fondness for the quaint.

That's a big reason why you don't see LEOs carrying revolvers any longer.

That said - carrying a SAA in a shoulder holster is somewhat difficult simply because they don't carry well due to weight.

The best one I ever found used a chest cross-strap, and while it concealed well - it only did so when wearing cowboy clothing, because the vest hid the cross strap - worn otherwise and it was a beacon.

They're like carrying an N-Frame Smith & Wesson - they 'have' to be balanced by an ammunition strip and/or a cuff case in order to be balanced enough for some sort of comfort.

The whole point of concealed carry is the operative word - 'concealed' - and the bigger revolvers just do not do that(and don't point to Clint Eastwood in 'Dirty Harry' - he wasn't wearing any rig when he was in that sausage casing suit - he only wore it in the shooting sequences.) because everything sticks out in inappropriate places and only a really 'good' tailor can help cover/conceal the piece.

A vest 'can' help - but the guy wearing the vest is also the first guy I'd shoot, because he'd be the nut with the gun.

For CCW - pick something small, flat and powerful - like a Colt Officer's ACP - then add a 'clipdraw' to carry inside your waistband and not a holster - you can't 'minimize' more than that.

Scouts Out!

[Ol Gabe]

OK, out of simple curiousity...
We see the Big Boy Toys advertised in all the mags, Taurus Judge, S&W Governor, Desert 50, etc., who makes holsters rigs for those as we don't seem to see them as a companion piece unless I'm looking at the wrong page of the mag? The S&W Gov. looks like it would be a great shoulder fit 'IF' there was a custom or velcro-style rig to put it in.
Again, just curious as they seem to be popular and as large as a big-azz Desert 50.
Best regards and thanks for all the LEO's and Service Members (St. George especially!) out there, we appreciate your time and help in keeping our country safe!
'Ol Gabe

[St. George]

Regardless of size and appropriateness/ease of carry - there will always be 'someone' who will make something to carry something in.

With the advent of nylon and later - Kydex - one can make something to hold anything.

Whether it's a good idea or not - or if it 's actually 'usable' over the period of days of wear is debateable.

There will always be guys who - no matter what - will carry the biggest, seemingly baddest, loudest hand cannon humanly possible and they'll act like the weight and lopsidedness just doesn't bother 'them', because they're 'manly'.(For some odd reason, I'm always reminded of the TV show - 'Hammer' and his 'Loudener' when I run across them).

They can't control them in full recoil or follow-on shots to save their ass - but by God - it's the biggest one anyone makes...

Some guns are sold for their novelty factor - witness the above - and are shot little, while some may reside under a seat 'just in case', as those .44 Magnums seem to be - especially out West where predators abound.

But when it comes to concealed carry - the operative word is 'concealed' - not - 'Look at the bulge against my shirt/coat - I'm going strapped!'

When the piece 'needs' to come out - it's best that it's a complete surprise to everyone concerned, because when it does emerge, things just got real.

I hope it never happens for any of you...

Scouts Out!

And Gabe - thanks...

[USBP1969]

Thanks gents for the info.  Doesn't sound too encouraging though.  I was hoping that in CAS someone would have worn the El Paso Saddlery 'Tombstone" holster or the Mernickle SH6.

Respectfully

[John Barleycorn]

CAS is a fantasy game. When considering concealed carry for my protection a single action 1873 clone would not be what I want to get in a life preserving fight with.

[Shotgun Franklin]

LOL, 'Die Hard' was just a movie. I was in 6 standup gunfights as a Cop, never fired more than 4 rounds in any of'm. I carried a Colt SAA working off duty for Jack In The Box. The gangsters were terrified of my gun. The reason Cops do not carry revolvers is that companies offer big incentives to those who pick new guns for the department autos are 'in' with the makers. Locally a major department tested a mess of autos, the Sig won every test but Glock got the contract, they had a bigger incentive for the guy making the choice. It's the same with every piece of equipment, the guys get what they are told they like not what's best. BTW, while Hollywood invented the 'fast draw' it has very little application in real life.
Now, jump in and tell me how I don't know a thing about what I'm saying, after all YOU read a book and saw a movie.

[MJN77]

LOL, 'Die Hard' was just a movie.

On August 25, 2008 Skokie Ill. police officer Tim Gramins was involved in a prolonged gunfight with bank robbery suspect Raymond Maddox. During this fight, Maddox received 17 wounds from the officer's .45 Glock before he went down from a head shot.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2012/02/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

From the article......."There were 17 total hits on his body including three fatal shots to his head, a couple to his torso, and one to his abdomen," Gramins says. "Which means that even though Maddox was mortally wounded before the head shots, he was still able to engage me."

Gramins only had four rounds left after the fight was over...."each of Gramins' available 12-round gun magazines came into play that day-and he had a mere four rounds left when the smoke cleared."

Good thing Officer Gramins didn't have a single action revolver.

Not to mention the 1986 Miami FBI shootout where the gunman was fatally wounded at the start of the fight, but was able to keep fighting for four minutes and kill two FBI agents, and wound five others before he was finally stopped after taking twelve wounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Or "Baby Face" Nelson, who was wounded seventeen times and still killed two FBI agents in 1934.

Some bad guys are just more determined than others and don't stop fighting even after being fatally wounded.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2014/02/fighting-the-never-say-die-killer.aspx

Now, jump in and tell me how

you would've only needed four rounds and a SAA to face any of these fellows.

[USBP1969]

MAGSAFE

[Shotgun Franklin]

So since 1900 you found three shooting where multiple shots were fired. There actually were more. Of course you picked POLICE shootings which are very different than a civilian defending themselves. If you had gone to the school they put on about the FBI screwed up shooting in Miami you'd know that the Feds completely screwed up, used very poor tactics and poor Gov'n supplied ammo. If I were after Bank Robbers I'd take my 12 ga and AR NOT 5 shot snubbies. It's your choice. Carry a 15 shot plastic gun if that makes you feel better. I'd rather hit a bad guy with one good shot than to spray and pray.

[MJN77]

So since 1900 you found three shooting where multiple shots were fired. There actually were more.

Yes, there were. I just gave three examples.

Of course you picked POLICE shootings which are very different than a civilian defending themselves.

How do you figure that? Is a cop not defending him/herself the same as a civilian would? Civilians encounter the same criminals that police do. In fact, in most cases civilians encounter them first. Police normally encounter them after they have committed the crime against a civilian that made them criminals in the first place. If they survive the civilian encounter. The biggest difference between police shootouts and civilian shootouts is that the civilian doesn't have any backup to call to overwhelm and out gun the bad guy.

If you had gone to the school they put on about the FBI screwed up shooting in Miami you'd know that the Feds completely screwed up, used very poor tactics and poor Gov'n supplied ammo. If I were after Bank Robbers I'd take my 12 ga and AR NOT 5 shot snubbies.

Studied the shootout for years and you are right on all counts. Doesn't change the fact that Michael Lee Platt was mortally wounded with one of the first rounds fired and still shot FBI men for four minutes. Platt was hit first with Agent Jerry Dove's S&W 459 9mm pistol using Winchester silvertip ammo. Some of the other agents did have 12guage shotguns, but were wounded by Platt's Ruger mini 14 with 30 round mags before they could use them.

I'd rather hit a bad guy with one good shot than to spray and pray.

Unless you put that "one good shot" through the brain, you still stand a chance of being killed by a dying shooter. You can shoot accurately with a semi-auto and miss with a SAA too you know.

In the old west, savvy outlaws, lawmen and civilians armed themselves with the most modern weapons available to them. They still do. When you could come face to face with a criminal armed with a 15 shot handgun, or more than one criminal at a time, it doesn't seem like the smartest choice in the world to carry a single action revolver. Not all criminals are afraid to swap lead with police or civilians. You want to hang your life on 5 or 6 shots that you have thumb cock one at a time, I wish you the best of luck.  

But all of this is off the subject, so I'm done.

[hp246]

Gunfights whether bad guy vs police or bad guy vs civilian are not to be taken lightly.  The most important thing to have in a gun fight is a gun.  From my experience, carrying a large uncomfortable handgun concealed leads to not carrying one at all.  I'd rather have 3 shots available than none.  You can go overboard and get into all kinds of statistical arguments. 

[Shotgun Franklin]

I'm off this subject but it was nice meeting all the armchair gun experts. Don't wear out your copy of 'Die Hard'.

[Coal Creek Griff]

I'm sorry that this topic turned into name calling and insults...

I'm also in law enforcement and I've been in shootings.  The most I fired was three rounds, but that doesn't mean that I want to carry a three round gun.  My current assignment really is to go after bank robbers and you can bet that I carry some serious weapons (and bring a bunch of friends with their serious weapons) when I'm expecting to make an arrest.

On the other hand, I was a police firearms instructor for many years and I firmly believe in carrying what YOU feel confident in.  I would not personally choose a single-action revolver as my primary carry gun, but that is mainly because of slow reloading, not slow shooting.  MANY people (off-duty officers and civilians) carry five or six shot guns with no spare ammo.  At that point, I'd say that the difference is negligible.  Which would I choose in a gunfight—a single action .45 with five rounds or a double action only .380 (ala Ruger LCP) with six rounds?  I'd personally pick the revolver.  Now which would I want to carry all day long walking at the beach or shopping at the mall?  The answer just switched.  As previously noted, the small gun that you have is better than the big gun that was too awkward to carry concealed so you left it at home.

My bottom line: choose the gun you are confident with, practice drawing and shooting in the clothes you plan to wear and get proficient with it.  (Note that I said MY bottom line—that's MY opinion only.  You do what is best for you.)

CC Griff

[USBP1969]

Right on the money Griff.

I served nine years in my agency as an academy Firearms Instructor and the later a 6 year stint with them after I retired as a rehired annuitant.  I also served 2 1/2 years at our National Firearms Unit writing specs and testing weapons, ammo , holsters and targets. (Tough job, but someone had to do it.)  I also had to read and comment on all shooting incidents, including AD's. 

Over the years we were indeed blessed with excellent guns and ammo and never did a bad guy require a bunch of hits, although the Bandit Unit took no chances and "unloaded" on any armed bandits they encountered.

The task of finding a comfortable CCW holster for large weapons such as a 1911, an "N" frame or an 1873 isn't easy, hence my original post.

The comments about the discomfort of wearing a shoulder rig were particularly interesting. In my case, however, being retired, the longest period I would be carrying away from home would be ~ 3 hours, so maybe there's hope.

Thanks again gentlemen,
-kent

[St. George]

In a wild, misguided attempt to return to topic  - for a heavy revolver or auto, the rigging needed for 'comfortable' support of an SAA is significant - largely because of both 'shape' and of 'balance'.

Figure out how to do those things, and a big part of the problem is fixed.

Then, there's 'anatomy' - and a big guy - especially a 'round' one, or a barrel-chested one has a serious problem in reaching the piece because of his width and the length of his arms.

That's why crossdraw works better - the bulk of the ribcage works 'with' the weapon to better hide it.

I looked at both rigs you referenced, and the El Paso rig requires a belt on the off-side to help anchor it, as well as one on the strong side - and unless anchored, that rig 'will' flop about and the spring clip requires a 'snapping' movement in order to make the draw.

You can learn it - but the piece is held vertically and the butt does protrude.

That rig's called a 'Half-Breed' and worked great during the time frame, simply because of the clothing worn back then - today, we wear less - and of lesser bulk.

The Mernickle rig isn't 'Old West' by any stretch of the imagination, and if made of parachute shop nylon, I'd swear my Rigger made it, because it's very similar to what I've worn for years - but mine's balanced by spare magazines and cuffs.

Quite honestly - and I'm trying to help, here - I don't think you're going to find an off-the-shelf rig unless you try a bunch of them on - and even then, I think you'll be disappointed.

Good Luck!

Scouts Out!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

What about a "tanker" style rig? It would work under a winter jacket. Or for wilderness walks?  Too bulky for urban carry, buts that is to be expected with a full-size SAA.

http://www.epsaddlery.com/pc-96-14-1942-tanker-holster-5-12-to-8-38-barrels.aspx

[St. George]

I'm starting to think that this question should be re-asked over on the 'Leather Forum' - without the animosity, of course.

Those guys might have better answers.

Scouts Out!

[hp246]

Right on Griff.