Colt Lightning Rifle Bolt Lock

[Blackpowder Burn]

I know this has been discussed somewhat in the past, but I am finding posts with conflicting or confusing information.  I'm hoping Pettifogger, or some other knowledgeable soul can help me out.

I have recently acquired an original Colt Lightning in 32 WCF manufactured in 1891 according to the serial number.  After cleaning 100+ years of crud from the action, replacing a few missing parts (firing pin lever, loading trap and spring, etc.), the old girl looks pretty good and seems to function well.  My concern is that the bolt will not lock when the hammer is cocked.  This is not one of the first gens with the bolt lock slide in the front of the trigger guard.

I've seen folks say it's normal and OK for the bolt not to lock.  However, I also have a USFA Lightning that does have the integral bolt lock feature in the action - and these are supposed to be exact copies of the Colt.  I even used USFA parts on this original.  So, do I just have one of the models without a bolt lock, or have a problem?

I'm so confused.................

[Blackpowder Burn]

Pettifogger,

Here is the only photo I have at the moment - I'm traveling on business.  You will notice it does not presently have a dust cover, but that hadn't been installed when this was taken.  I tried the one from my USFA and it fit perfectly.

If you need additional photos from other angles I can take them and post tomorrow afternoon after returning home.

[Pettifogger]

That's a second generation.  It should have a slide lock.  Either the little tab behind the main magazine finger is worn or the notch in the bottom of the pump slide if worn.  IF the gun shoots and functions other than that, the gun will function just fine without the slide lock.  1st Gen Colts didn't have slide locks and neither do the Ubertis.

Here is a photo of the little tab.



Here is the bottom of the pump slide.  The little TINY piece to the left of the big notch is the "lock."  (Pointer is pointing at it.)  It goes into the notch between the little tab and the big finger in the first photo.  If it and/or the little tab is worn the slide won't lock.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Pettifogger,

Many thanks.  I'll examine those parts when I get home this afternoon.  At any rate, it sounds like the rifle is safe to test fire at least.  I'd like to have the gun back to completely original function eventually.  If one of these items is the problem, I can find a replacement or get it repaired by Alan Harton.

[Blackpowder Burn]

It appears to be a worn tab behind the magazine finger.  Based on that, I'm going to test fire it tomorrow.  Everything else seems to be functioning OK.  If functioning is OK, I'll repair the tab.

Thanks for the help.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Test fired the old girl yesterday at our practice day - she went bang and hit the target! 

Now to buy all the stuff like brass, loading dies, bullet mold and sizing die, caliber change kit for the Dillon, reloading dies, etc.  Dang, I'll end up with more money in that than I have invested in the rifle!

I keep telling my wife that the 32-20 will use only half the lead and powder of the 44-40, so the savings will pay for the rifle and ancillary gear in "no time".  That's my story and I'm sticking to it! 

[Tascosa Joe]

BPB: 
You will find that 32-20 is as quirky to reload as 44-40, but it is a lot of fun.
T-Joe '72

[Pettifogger]

If you haven't purchased your .32-20 dies yet I would recommend Hornady New Dimension dies.  I have four sets of .32-20 from different makers and all of them required machining about .020 to .060 off the bottom of the sizer to set the shoulder back far enough to reliably chamber in my four .32-20 Lightnings.  The only one that worked correctly out to the box was Hornady.  Same with the .44-40.  The only die set that worked without shortening the sizer was Hornady.

[Blackpowder Burn]

T-Joe, I've been reloading 38-40 and 44-40 in mass quantities for years, so am familiar with handling these thin-walled bottleneck cartridges.  Looking forward to setting up to cast and load for another of the old period cartridges.  Actually, with the acquisition of this rifle, I now have a least one original rifle ('73, '92 and Lightning) in each of 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40.

Pettifogger, thanks for that recommendation.  I've been reloading 44-40's with unmodified Redding dies with no problem for 2 Lightnings and an original '92 Winchester.  However, I'll certainly go ahead and buy the Hornady dies for the 32-20 - no sense taking a chance when I know those will work! 

[Hondo44]

That's a second generation.  It should have a slide lock.  Either the little tab behind the main magazine finger is worn or the notch in the bottom of the pump slide if worn.  IF the gun shoots and functions other than that, the gun will function just fine without the slide lock.  1st Gen Colts didn't have slide locks and neither do the Ubertis.

Pettifogger,

If I'm understanding correctly, the 1st gen Colt Lightnings and the Ubertis will "slam fire" like the Winchester '97 pump shotgun because they don't have a slide lock.

I have a Berretta Gold Rush Model Lightning Carbine which is made by Uberti. I can dry fire it, hold the trigger down, pump it and the hammer will drop. So I'm concluding that it's a copy of the Colt 1st Gen Lightning w/o a slide lock which is what allows it to be 'slam fired'. Is that right?

Jim

[Blackpowder Burn]

Hondo,

All the Colt and USFA Lightnings will slam fire.  That feature is independent of the bolt lock.  Pettifogger may have a correction to offer, as I'm still on the learning curve with Lightnings.  What I've read is the bolt lock is activated when the hammer is at either half-cock or full-cock, but this still allows it so slam fire.  My USFA Lightning functions this way, and it has the bolt lock feature. 

[Pettifogger]

Ubertis do not have a slide lock and do NOT slam fire.  Pedersolis have a slide lock and do NOT slam fire.  Slam fire has nothing to do with the slide lock.  Colt, USFA, AWA, and Taurus will slam fire if the internal parts are adjusted properly.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Pettifogger,

I have all the parts and the rifle is reassembled now.  It appears to function properly - just need a little range time for a test.  I do have one additional question, however.

There were two screws inserted (one from each side of the action) just above and about even with the rear of the loading gate.  These have been cut off inside to just clear the carrier.  Due to this, the pin holding the bolt brace was cut off to clear them.  This pin will occasionally slide out slightly and block bolt movement due to interference with these added screws.

The only purpose I can see for the additional screws is to perhaps prevent the small 32-20 cartridge from coming off the carrier and falling to the side?  Do you have any knowledge of this type of problem?  I'm thinking of removing them and installing an original dimension bolt brace pin.  I've included a couple of photos below to show one of these screws from both the outside and inside of the action.


Your thoughts?

[Pettifogger]

As you guessed, the screws are cartridge guides for the .32-20.  You don't want to remove them.

[Blackpowder Burn]

OK, thanks.  So was this a typical after-market modification?

[shrapnel]

Pettifogger,

If I'm understanding correctly, the 1st gen Colt Lightnings and the Ubertis will "slam fire" like the Winchester '97 pump shotgun because they don't have a slide lock.

I have a Berretta Gold Rush Model Lightning Carbine which is made by Uberti. I can dry fire it, hold the trigger down, pump it and the hammer will drop. So I'm concluding that it's a copy of the Colt 1st Gen Lightning w/o a slide lock which is what allows it to be 'slam fired'. Is that right?

Jim

There is some misunderstanding of terms here or false information. I have had every Colt Lightning configuration and caliber in all the frame sizes and shot them extensively. All the medium frame Lightnings, including the first model with the external slide lock, lock up the bolt at full cock so the slide cannot be operated. If the gun doesn't lock in the cocked position, the locking mechanism is worn.

Slam fire won't happen with a Lightning, unless there is wear on those same parts. You can hold the trigger down on the rifle and pump the action as quick as you can but the hammer will not fall until the action has closed. If it doesn't work in that manner, there is wear on those parts.

I have shot thousands of rounds through these guns, I have 2 first models and 1 later model with the dust cover. They all work exactly the same. They are in excellent original condition and continue to work as well as when they were new. The internals weren't hardened as parts might be today, with age and rough treatment these parts can have mechanical problems. These problems can be perceived differences in manufacture.

Here is a copy of the description of the patent with the description of the bolt lock on line 86 in the second column.



These are my Lightnings and they still function properly...

[Blackpowder Burn]

Shrapnel,

You are, indeed, a fortunate person to have all of those beautiful Lightnings to enjoy.

I am a bit confused about the slam fire issue, however.  I have a USFA Lightning purchased new.  The bolt lock functions properly, and it will slam fire.  The USFA literature advertises it as mechanically identical to original Colt's and they do state that it is supposed to slam fire. 

[shrapnel]

Slam fire is a term that leaves much to definition. With the Lightning, the bolt is closed before the hammer is released, much the same as the firing mechanism of a fully automatic gun such as the M-16. Slam fire usually means the hammer follows the bolt home and causes the round chambered to discharge. This is not what the correctly functioning Lightning will do. Again, it has an interruption and the hammer will trip after the bolt is closed and actually strike the firing pin. Slam fire is following the bolt down, much less likely to reliably detonate the primer.

[Hondo44]

Ok I'm gaining some understanding now, I think.

Bolt lock is just that; once the hammer is cocked the bolt can not be opened. Slam firing (the hammer follows the bolt forward) is not possible if the action has an interrupter like the Colt 45 Model 1911. If the interupter is worn or damaged on a 1911 it will slam fire as long as the trigger is held down until the magazine is emptied.

My Winch '97 has a bolt lock. I can not open the bolt with the hammer cocked. And it also slam fires apparently because it does not have an interrupter.

But with my Berretta Lightning (Uberti Made) I can open the bolt with the hammer cocked because it has no bolt lock. And if I pull the trigger, which drops the hammer, and keep the trigger held back I can continue to pump the bolt, and the hammer follows it down each time and slam fires over and over. I bought this Berretta Lightning new in the box and unfired. It has less than 100 rounds thru it so it can't be worn. Is it defective then?

[Blackpowder Burn]

Shrapnel,

OK, so it seems the term "slamfire" is being used incorrectly here.  Is there an accepted term for what the Lightning does - trip the hammer each time the bolt reaches lockup as long as the trigger is held back?