Unidentified 16ga double barrel hammer coach gun

[charlidu]

I'm trying to identify the manufacturer of a 16ga double barrel hammer coach gun that I recently purchased at a local auction.  The picture shows the writing on the underside of the 20" barrels, enhanced with some white crayon.  Any help would be appreciated.  The writing appears to me to possibly be Russian.  Thanks for any help.

[hammer1]

It definitely cyrillic( russian), in that location it probably proof marks, and or info on chambering.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Here is a reference on Russian proofmarks;  (You can navigate around the list on the left to find proofmarks from other countries.)

http://www.shotguns.se/html/russia.html

It looks like my TULA made "Baikal".  In 12 ga. there would be a TO3 66 marking around the top of each barrel at the breach.  I had a 20 gauge once and I seem to recall it was marked TO3 20.  (The Russian "Z" looks like a "3", so pronounced TOZ 66)

If I am correct, these strong guns with tough springs are post WWII. They were not uncommon in Canada from the '60s, but I know they were later sold in the US, mostly 20" bbls for the Cas crowd (That's US!), and generally in 12ga. Mine (28 in. bbls.) has very good regulation, yeilding trap scores equal to those shot with more conventional field guns, but I have seen one that shot a foot higher with one barrel over the other.

You may have found a very shootable gun for our sport, and game at short ranges.  If you are interested in the 16 gauge, look up <16ga.com>

[charlidu]

Thanks to both hammer1 and Sir Charles deMouton-Black for your comments/suggestions.  According to a couple of proof marks on the barrels, some information was apparent:  "Final proof with nitro powder and test shooting; Final nitro/smokeless proof; improved modified choke, and full choke proofs.  It appears that the shotgun will take up to a 3" shell. 

[Jayhawker]

Never heard of a 3" 16 Gauge....and I've been shooting 16s for better than 50 years...

[charlidu]

Jayhawker, since you have 50 years experience with 16ga, and I have zero, I will yield to your knowledge.  I have little experience with shotguns.  I mentioned the 3" only because when I look down the barrels from the breach end, there is a step in the inner diameter, which occurs 3 inches from the end.  That's why I assumed it took a 3" shell.  Mea culpa.  That's what a like about a site like this............a newbie like me can get a lot of wisdom from those in the know.  Regards.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

3 inch rounds did exist but were very rare. Your gun would be chambered for 2 3/4" ammo and you won't find any ammo longer than that. Currently some scattered interest in wildcatting such a load. IMHO; it should be a dead issue. Folks use 16 gauges because they are the ideal game gun gauge for walking about. If one needs a skybuster buy a 3" 12ga.

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14786&highlight=inch++gauge

You will struggle to feed a 16 gauge but it is possible for the dedicated 16 gauge fan. For loaded ammo, check out Cabelos. If you are into the DARK ARTS get some Magtech 16 ga. brass hulls and 14 gauge wads from Circle Fly. About 40 to 50 grains of FFg works great.

[Trailrider]

I would want to be very sure of the chamber lengths. I have zero knowledge of Russian shotguns, but many older European 16ga had shorter chambers. The "length" of a shotshell refers to its length after firing. Best thing would be to do a chamber casting with CerroSafe low melting point alloy (available from Dixie Gun Works or Brownells).

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Look at the link I posted above. It shows the chamber length markings you should find. What you are looking for is either the stamp 70, meaning 2 3/4" or 65 meaning 2 1/2" chambers. Your picture might be hiding this mark from me. All of the Tula shotguns I have seen in Canada were 2 3/4".

Go to a gunshop and sweet talk, or pay, the gunsmith to drop a gauge into the chambers to know for sure.

Either way;  Magtech brass shells are 2.5" long, and can be loaded with makeshift tools. Loading 2 .5" ammo in plastic cases  is easy. I can tell you how to do it on almost any regular 16 gauge loading press.

[charlidu]

I have rephotographed the barrels of the shotgun in an attempt to display all the markings.  I have circled a "70" which would indicate, according to Sir Charles deMouton-Black, a 2 3/4" shell. 

[RattlesnakeJack]

Keep in mind that a shotgun chamber is longer than the loaded shell it is designed for ... the extra length permits the crimp to open up fully ao as not to create an obstruction.  (In other words, a fired 2 3/4" shell will be 3" long or so ....

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Keep in mind that a shotgun chamber is longer than the loaded shell it is designed for ... the extra length permits the crimp to open up fully ao as not to create an obstruction.  (In other words, a fired 2 3/4" shell will be 3" long or so ....

Wouldn't the calculation be the other way?  A fully loaded star crimped 2 3/4 in shell is only 2 1/2 inch long. When it is fired it gets longer. As I recollect, the reason for the change was to get a perfectly good 2.5 inch load into a star crimped package. When I trim a shell to 2.5" to work in my older guns, I use pretty much the same load except with the O/S card and roll crimp. The loaded shells fit into a regular box for 2 3/4 shells with only a teensy bit of slop.

Of course the chamber on the gun would have had to be made or altered to be long enough for the star-crimp to open without causing an obstruction.

[RattlesnakeJack]

You are correct, Sir Charles.  I must admit that I didn't adequately think out the lengths of fired and unfired shotgun shells.  

Was primarily wanting to clarify to the OP why it is that just because a 3" round will chamber in a gun does not mean it should be fired with that length shell ....

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

You are correct, Sir Charles.  I must admit that I didn't adequately think out the lengths of fired and unfired shotgun shells.  

Was primarily wanting to clarify to the OP why it is that just because a 3" round will chamber in a gun does not mean it should be fired with that length shell ....

I get it! A star-crimped 3" shell is only about 2 3/4" long before it is fired.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Yeah .... that's what I was trying to say ....   

[Blair]

I can't speak for 16ga. ammo and champers. As per the OP's question. I have no real experience with 16ga. other that I like it for hunting.

However, within 12ga. the measurement, such as 2 3/4" (star crimp) indicates the shot shell length after it has been fired, and the type of crimp that shot shell was sealed or closed with.
The chamber length needs to allow for the crimp to open.
Perhaps, even more important is the type of powder one maybe using in that shot shell and the chamber length of that particular fire arm. This has not been suggested or discussed as of yet.
My best,
Blair

[Trailrider]

A number of Belgian-made doubles and combination guns marked with 70 indicates 2-3/4" shells, and 65 indicates 2-1/2" shells. The numbers are the length of the fired shells in millimeters.