what if Custer's 7th had been armed with Spencers/Winchesters and Schofields

[nativeshootist]

I know this is an old forum, but if you read "Black Elk Speaks";  He and his cousin used "six shooters", while his brother used a shotgun. so they could've been old percussion cap ones, later he said when he was in canada. both him and his dad had repeaters.

[PJ Hardtack]

Firepower does not compensate for poor planning, poor intelligence gathering (one of the primary roles of Cavalry) and poor execution. Custer had a battery of Gatling guns that he failed to deploy.

Little Big Horn ought not to be celebrated but taught in military schools as an example of how not to engage a highly mobile enemy. Blaming the weapons of his soldiers dishonours their memory.

[Galen]

Ok, who remembers the twilight zone episode with the national guard tank and crew go back in time? Then came upon the battle. the tank was abandoned and the men joined the battle with m1 carbines and 1911's. Did not change the out come, just added to the kia's.

[Coffinmaker]

Speculating the outcome of this particular cluster f>>>, is actually a waste of good speculation.  Here's a factoid.  It takes hundreds of rounds fired to get a casualty.  Custers troops weren't creating a dead hostile every time a rigger was pulled.  There was insufficient ammunition for a sustained fight.  Combat load-out of 70 to 100 rounds doesn't last long, especially when your scared out of your mind and the adrenaline level is max'd.

The odds were only about 20 to 1.  Figure best case = 1 casualty for every 100 rounds fired.  Hostiles suffer a total of 200 casualties.  Not all necessarily KIA, just casualties.  That means in real numbers, when Custers command fires their very last round, they still face around 3800 hostiles.  Not an optimum position to be in.

It matters not how you spin the weapons.  The number of casualties per number of rounds fired will remain approximately the same.  With repeating rifles, it just means you run out of ammo faster.  Shorter fight.  Same outcome.  Every time.  A lot like watching Titanic movies.  Always ends the same.

Custer only had one good option.  Turn and RUN LIKE HELL.

Coffinmaker

PS:  It has however, made real interesting reading and given something to do on a cold grey morning 

[PJ Hardtack]

Military Wisdom 101 - "When you are surrounded, you are in a "target-rich" environment."

Until the ammo runs out .....

[Major 2]

What "if"   eh !

" if "  we had ham we could make a ham and cheese sandwich " if " we had cheese  

[River City John]

Ok, who remembers the twilight zone episode with the national guard tank and crew go back in time? Then came upon the battle. the tank was abandoned and the men joined the battle with m1 carbines and 1911's. Did not change the out come, just added to the kia's.

That was an M5 Stuart, one of my favorite tanks.

RCJ

[Galen]

It was a Stuart. They should have brought the tank to the battle.
P.S. Stuart was the M3.

[Major 2]

I guess if we are going there 

The Twilight Zone, Episode "The 7th Is Made Up of Phantoms"
Starred Warren Oates.....

maybe some Ma Deuces   

[Galen]

One of the best episodes on the twilight zone.

[River City John]

It was a Stuart. They should have brought the tank to the battle.
P.S. Stuart was the M3.

M3 was the first two models designation, primarily aircraft engines using High octane aviation fuel. With the M5 model switched to V-8 engines burning regular, plus other upgrades. Larger engines necessitated the raising of the upper rear deck, giving it a more box-like shape.

M5 Stuart[edit]
To relieve the demand for the radial aero-engines used in the M3, a new version was developed using twin Cadillac V-8 automobile engines and twin Hydra-Matic transmissions operating through a transfer case. This variation was quieter, cooler and roomier. Owing to its automatic transmission it also simplified crew training. The new model (initially called M4 but redesignated M5 to avoid confusion with the M4 Sherman[7]) also featured a redesigned hull with sloped glacis plate and driver's hatches moved to the top. Although the main criticism from the units using it was that the Stuarts lacked firepower, the improved M5 series kept the same 37 mm gun. The M5 gradually replaced the M3 in production from 1942 and, after the M7 project proved unsatisfactory, was succeeded by the Light Tank M24 in 1944.
(Above courtesy of Wikipedia.)

Many foreign versions were in service during the fifties and sixties.  The French M5A1s participated in the Indo-Chinese campaign until 1954, and the Portuguese ones (only three) served in Angola in 1967.
(The Twilight Zone series is on Netflix, so now you've got me interested in the specific model. The M5A1 had a stepped back with raised rear, while the M5A3 had a straight line from front of glacis to rear.)

RCJ

[River City John]

Episode 112 "The 7th Is Made Up Of Phantoms"

It's an M5A3. Forgot that Warren Oates was in that one.



RCJ

[Galen]

Sir! I stand corrected on the the tank numerical designation. I still think they should have brought the tank to the battle M 3 or M 5.

[Coffinmaker]

National Guard is/was not issued ammo for their tanks while in Garrison.  Only issued when on annual training.  At least that's the way it use to be.

Coffinmaker

[Doug.38PR]

Episode 112 "The 7th Is Made Up Of Phantoms"

It's an M5A3. Forgot that Warren Oates was in that one.



RCJ

The National guard commanding officer and aid spotting the names of his three missing guardsmen on the Custer memorial.


C/O: "If they had taken thank, maybe they would have had a better chance."  
Aid: "Sir?"
C/O: "Nothing"

That was a spooky ending.   I have all 5 seasons on DVD.  My wife and I love them.


Anyway, the question of the makeup of the 7th Cavalry came up.  They were immigrants and men trying to get to gold, it was said.

Well, I don't know about them all being get rich quick gold finders, but I looked up the roll of the men who died in the 7th online a few years ago just out of curiosity.  One thing I noticed, if I recall right, was they about a third were made up of immigrants from Ireland and Germany and two thirds were made up of men from Northern states mostly in the Midwest, Pennsylvania and New York.    (I instantly remembered Ben Johnson's line from the John Ford movie She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, finding a 7th cappie with Cheyenne Indian feather attached and identifying the Indians as "...the same ones that whipped them Yankee soldiers with General Custer."  (an arrow whizzes by his nose and he takes off with a party of Indians after him on grand chase across Monument Valley eluding them by jumping a ravine.)    Seems, back then, the American army (or at least that part) was still, for the most part, the Northern army as reconstruction was about to end and most Southerners were still picking up the pieces rather than serving in the Army (which had been kind of the opposite before the war with Sec. of War Jefferson Davis' Second Cavalry in Texas).   I guess it wasn't until the Spanish American war that the North and South took up arms in the Army (whether volunteer or regular) to fight in Cuba and the Phillippines in 1898  

[PJ Hardtack]

I've been told by Confederate sympathizers that Lee surrendered the Army of Virginia, not the army of the CSA. In other words, the Civil War is ongoing.

One of most touching moments (of many) in "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" was the funeral for the ex-Confederate Brigadier-General(?) who was serving as a Union Cavalry Corporal.

Ben Johnson asked for permission to drape the coffin with the "Stars & Bars" and it was granted out of respect for a gallant soldier. That is the way to heal old wounds.

[Coffinmaker]

HOW ON EARTH???   DOES THIS THREAD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CAS RELOADING???   OR .... EVEN CAS for that matter.

Coffinmaker

[Major 2]

Brigadier-General Rome Clay

[PJ Hardtack]

The battle of "Little Big Horn" has everything to do with CAS firearms of the era we play.  Our roots, our history.

Canada provided a refuge for some of the combatants from the vengeance of the US Army and promised the Great White Mother they wouldn't do another "Custer" on our side of the DMZ. It would have been easy for them as our population was pretty scarce and the NWMP even scarcer.

HOW ON EARTH???   DOES THIS THREAD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CAS RELOADING???   OR .... EVEN CAS for that matter.

Coffinmaker

[Coffinmaker]

What does the Battle of the Little Big Horn have to do with ..... "reloading??"  Not remotely related to "Cowboy Action Shooting" the game.

Not that it hasn't been a fun thread.  It's just way out there.  Way Way out there.

Coffinmaker