what if Custer's 7th had been armed with Spencers/Winchesters and Schofields

[pony express]

What does the Battle of the Little Big Horn have to do with ..... "reloading??"
Coffinmaker

Hmmm.... It's kind of a stretch, but, since one of the Indian Scouts was supposed to have told Custer that there were "more Indians then you have bullets"





Therefore, to insure victory, they would have had to call a halt to the battle, gather up all the brass, and do some reloading!



Well, I said it was a stretch.....

[Coffinmaker]

Now ..... That right there be FUNNY.

AS GAC looks over his shoulder ...... XO, call time out.  Send out the foragers to collect the brass.  We gotta reload our brass.  the rest of the Cavalry ain't coming!!!

Then was heard ....... Balls ..... Who's got Balls??  Doesn't anyone have Balls??  I'd sound retreat but some clown shot the bugler.  XO ... I THINK WE'RE SCREWED!!


Coffinmaker

[Doug.38PR]

I've been told by Confederate sympathizers that Lee surrendered the Army of Virginia, not the army of the CSA. In other words, the Civil War is ongoing.

One of most touching moments (of many) in "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" was the funeral for the ex-Confederate Brigadier-General(?) who was serving as a Union Cavalry Corporal.

Ben Johnson asked for permission to drape the coffin with the "Stars & Bars" and it was granted out of respect for a gallant soldier. That is the way to heal old wounds.

I've heard (and agree) with your first paragraph.  Events in the past two decades have made it clear that...the Yankees and their allies are still shooting at us.  Only now, it seems more Northerners are on our side as most good decent Americans are not offended by all things Southern.   The best men in the Union army even during and after the war were disgusted at the Radical Republican and Abolitionist venom and efforts to wipe out the South and spit on even the graves of our dead.

Yes that was a very touching scene in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.  You even hear Dixie softly playing as the dying Trooper "Smith" speaks to John Wayne and Ben Johnson.   John Ford, in particular, was always good and respectful to the South in his movies.  In fact, I think a few years ago during the 150th Anniversary of the War, TCM narrator Robert Osbourne said that John Ford agreed to do the movie The Horse Soldiers with John Wayne with the understanding that the South would be treated fairly.    And so it was.  One of our favorite John Wayne movies.  (filmed not too far from where I live...in fact there is an old horse ranch down the road from me that donated some of the horses for use in that movie)

(BTW, just for clarification, the Stars and Bars is not the Confederate Battle Flag or Navy Jack.  The Stars and Bars was the first national flag of the Confederate States and was designed like the Flag of 1776 with a circle of stars on a blue field in the corner and white and red bars instead of stripes.    The Confederate Battle flag that we think of today was actually the Southern Cross or St. Andrews Cross with a Saltire and used in various colors, lettering, shapes in different armies in the Confederacy.  A lot of people get that confused)   

[Doug.38PR]

HOW ON EARTH???   DOES THIS THREAD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CAS RELOADING???   OR .... EVEN CAS for that matter.

Coffinmaker

You know I'm not sure either.  I posted this quite a while ago and I can't remember if it got moved here by a moderator for whatever reason or I accidentally clicked the wrong link and didn't realize it was in the wrong forum until I posted it and it never got moved to somewhere appropriate.   In fact, you'll notice I never responded to anything until recently.  I seem to remember losing this thread as soon as I posted it and figured it was deleted long ago.  It wasn't until a few weeks ago that I saw it in the headlines generating discussion that I realized it not only made it but was still in talk.    In any event, it has generated some interesting discussion.

[PJ Hardtack]

"I sang 'Dixie' while he died.
Whisky had robbed him of his Southern pride ..."

Line from a Dwight Yoakum song.

[Doug.38PR]

Funny, I'm probably going to be watching They Died With Their Boots on later this week.   It's funny how all the movies do Custer's last stand the same:  Custer and his men are all bunched together on an open plain, dismount and are huddled together with 4000 Indians circling them until all are dead.   From They Died With their Boots on in the 40s to Little Big Man in the 70s Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee made a few years ago.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

Custer and his 5 companies ran out of ammo.  The spooked horses carried away their spare ammo.  The pack train never reached them.  Reno and Benteen had 24,000 rds of ammo because, they ended up with the pack train, plus what they already had on them.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

at this point what difference does it make?
Seems to me I heard that somewhere
Bunk

[wildman1]

Yep, but I was hopin we wouldn't hear it here. 
wM1

[Coffinmaker]

I had my pet war-gaming computer (WHOPPER by name) run simulations of all the possible scenarios of the Battle of The Little Big Horn.  The result always comes up the same.  Custer gets wiped out.  The Indians ride off into the sunset.  The great White Father in Washington still runs all the native people off their land and Penn State loses the Rose Bowl because of two STUPID PENALTIES in the last two minutes.
The Titanic still ran into an Iceberg and sank.  No matter what, if you irritate a Skunk, the outcome will NOT be harmonious. 

SO THERE!!

Coffinmaker 

[Galen]

Custer should have called in the gunships! Or few F4's dropping naplam. Like the 7th did near Bong son.

[PJ Hardtack]

Custer had a couple of Gatling guns in his train that he did not deploy.

They would have been of great service in a redoubt, making the position unassailable. But, they didn't think like that back then.

It took General Middleton to first use Gatlings in the fight against the Metis where allegedly, some RC Nuns were among the casualties.
The gunner was a Yankee Militia Officer from Connecticut, I believe. Howard, by name .... ? I'd have to refer to my library.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

Custer had a couple of Gatling guns in his train that he did not deploy.

They would have been of great service in a redoubt, making the position unassailable. But, they didn't think like that back then.

It took General Middleton to first use Gatlings in the fight against the Metis where allegedly, some RC Nuns were among the casualties.
The gunner was a Yankee Militia Officer from Connecticut, I believe. Howard, by name .... ? I'd have to refer to my library.

Custer didn't have the Gatling guns with him at LBH, he refused them at the mouth of the Rosebud as they would impede his march.  If he had taken them he would not have arrived at LBH as early has he did, as they had to criss cross the Rosebud creek many, many times between June 22 and June 24  slowing his advance.  Gatling guns were being pulled by condemned cavalry horses.  It was bad enough dragging a pack train.  Assuming he had them at LBH on the 25th, the terrain was against him.  Undulating ground, Hostiles popping up here and there at different levels would have rendered the Gatling guns useless.  If anyone could have used them it would have been Reno in the valley fight as it was on level ground.  But, he would of had to ford them across the LBH River which was in full spring flow. As I mentioned earlier, if they took the Gatling guns, the Hostiles would have departed LBH before Custer would have gotten there.

U.S. Army tactics of the day have shown that Gatling guns were good for attacking a hostile village on level ground, but, on undulating ground at different levels.........useless!  Basically, Custer and his 5 companies ran out of ammo.  The Cheyenne spooked the cavalry horses by waving blankets and blowing eagle bone whistles.  The horses left with the extra ammo.  The pack train did not arrive for Custer but, Reno and Benteen 4 miles away had the pack train with 24,000 rounds of ammo in a defensive position and survived (mostly).  The 7th Cavalry (12 Companies) at LBH suffered 51% casualties.

[Galen]

What they should have had is them Hollywood six guns that shot all thru the movie without reloading. That would have changed things.

[PJ Hardtack]

Custer didn't have the Gatling guns with him at LBH, he refused them at the mouth of the Rosebud as they would impede his march.  

Didn't say that he had them at LBH, did I? I said that he has them in his support train. Poor intel and recce set him up for his debacle along with terrain issues.

Great bein' an armchair general after the fact, ain't it? I got a pal in war gaming and he keeps asking me to get involved. He says it's an excellent way to learn something about tactics - with the benefit of hindsight, that is!

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

Didn't say that he had them at LBH, did I? I said that he has them in his support train. Poor intel and recce set him up for his debacle along with terrain issues.

Great bein' an armchair general after the fact, ain't it? I got a pal in war gaming and he keeps asking me to get involved. He says it's an excellent way to learn something about tactics - with the benefit of hindsight, that is!

The first line in your post gave the impression that he had the Gatling guns with him when he arrived at LBH.  LBH is my next favourite hobby after CAS.  I have been to LBH approx 15 + times and have two bookshelves with over 50 books plus numerous papers, writings, articles etc  all on LBH.  I have been on the LBH forum since internet became available.  I have followed the Custer trail from fort Abraham Lincoln (Bismarck, ND) to the LBH a couple of times.  Hollywood always shows that when they left the fort, they arrived at LBH the same day, when in fact it took them 40 days to get to LBH.  I guess you could say that I'm a Custerphile.. I have given impromptu guided tours of the Reno/Benteen site, mainly because there were no information pamphlets left.  It is good to see that they now have pictographs/commentary at each of the markers showing what happened at each spot, rather than than having to rely on brochures that run out and are seldom replenished.  LBH is a fascinating study.  I'm 75 this year and I am going to LBH again this summer.  Probably the last time before I start collecting that pension cheque in the sky.  I was there on the anniversary (June 25, 1876) in 1998 and met Jon Custer, a descendent of Nevin Custer, GAC's brother.

Take care

Garryowen

[Rolling45-70]

i would says that they fought 1 hour longer, maybe, to much Indians around...

i was asking a similar question at the British Militarya Forum under Martini Henry and the Zulu Wars Thread.

what are happen with the defenders of Roke Drift Natal  when the 4000 Zulu Warriors are armed with the English Longbows ( trained like a Yeoman) instead of their  War Cubes and short Spears.?

Klaus

 

[Bunk Stagnerg]

it would seem to me that Custer was out maneuvered, out numbered, out gunned and just plane ran out of men and luck at the same time.
When he split his command, and crossed that creek he was finished and just did not know it.
The final score was Indians 1 Blue Coats 0

[Davem]

Start this again....  First Reno and his men made in through the battle so the major problem with Custer was that the troops got strung out and the Sioux picked them off one by one plus captured the ammo.  By the time Custer took a "stand" most of the men were already dead. That said, the Sioux were without question better armed.  Repeating rifles would have helped.
As I understand the game plan, there was an elongated hill several hundred yards from the river that ran parallel to the river.  The Sioux camp was along the river bank.  Custer would go in back of this hill, out of sight of the Sioux while Reno charged right in with the idea of immediately turning around and heading back to high ground and take up the defensive.  The Sioux warriors would charge Reno, leaving the women and children alone. Custer would then swoop down from the back and grab the women and children, holding them hostage until the Sioux agreed to return to the reservation.
An incredible gamble and it didn't work. The other thing that hit me was that the Sioux had to have scouts out, they never would have had that hill behind them without lookouts.

On the Gatling guns, remember the ammo wagon was the last item on Custer's force, trailing behind, and therefore the first thing picked off by the Sioux. I don't know with the Gatling guns in that situation would have done much good.

The most logical thing would have been to take up a position on high ground and get word to the other forces.

[St. George]

Re: what if Custer's 7th had been armed with Spencers/Winchesters and Schofields
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2014, 06:07:19 PM »

***

If you read the threads in SSS, you'll find the Army's rationale for using a hard-hitting single-shot.

That said, nothing can beat thorough training, and in order to do that, you have to be able to back it up with funding for ammunition, amongst other things - something that the frontier Army just didn't have.

Custer's Seventh - like every other Frontier Army outfit - was filled with newly-arrived immigrants and men trying to get to the gold fields while eating Army rations.

They weren't elite, well-trained, highly-motivated, agile, mobile, and hostile troopers by any stretch of the imagination.

Custer was conventional Cavalry combat-experienced, and an experienced leader of men - ask the Michigan Wolverines - but he was also hungry for glory and a chance to redeem himself - and he - like everyone else - seriously underestimated his foe's capabilities.

Never before - and never since - would American troops encounter the number of Indians in one place and cocked, locked and ready to rock - and they reminded the Army that there were still lessons to be learned on the modern battlefield - lessons we would take to heart.

It would take Crook's implacable Infantry to bring the Indian Wars to a close - but there was no way John Ford could add 'romance' to hard-campaigning dogfaces who pursued in winter, so that part of the truth is always left to the dust of history.

Scouts Out!