what if Custer's 7th had been armed with Spencers/Winchesters and Schofields

[Litl Red]

If Custer had only been armed with repeaters........   

Since Custer separated from his pack train, his unit would have faced the same overwhelming force with possibly twice the rifle ammo they had for their trapdoors.   It's not really clear what amount of ammo they would have been carrying for Winchesters or Spencers, but they weren't exactly overloaded with 45LC.   It's really not clear what the Army would have decided was an appropriate load for the trooper's horse.   And the ammo in the pack train Custer chose to leave behind, out of reach, didn't play a part at the time no matter what caliber.

Repeaters and Schofields would have probably changed the outcome.   There probably would have been a higher loss on the Indian's side.   Since they fairly quickly over ran Custer's 1/3 of his forces, the loss probably would not have been much higher on the Indian's side, but the same 100% of Custer's party.     

[Gassaway]

Less than 200 facing thousand would be mentally debilitating beyond our grasp. What I had in my hand would not help

[Bruce W Sims]

As long as we are playing "what-if-s" I wonder if anyone has thoughts on the recent mobility
tactics of ISIS in Syria and Iraq. Call me "crazy" but the first thing I thought of were the Commanche
tactics across Texas and the Moro fantics in the Phillipines. Patton, Guderian and Rommel all proved
the effectiveness of mobile warfare. I also think that Crook and MacKenzie proved the worth of doggedly
following the enemy into his strongholds.

If you're wondering where this is all coming from, I was one of those folks listening to the news the other day
when the Secy of Defense stated that Iraqi-s didn't have the will to fight and like somebody mentioned before
the 7th Cav folks were not battle-hardened ACW vets. I'm wondering if there are things our modern military
can apply from the Indian Wars.  Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[griswold]

If Custer had only been armed with repeaters........   

Since Custer separated from his pack train, his unit would have faced the same overwhelming force with possibly twice the rifle ammo they had for their trapdoors.   It's not really clear what amount of ammo they would have been carrying for Winchesters or Spencers, but they weren't exactly overloaded with 45LC.   It's really not clear what the Army would have decided was an appropriate load for the trooper's horse.   And the ammo in the pack train Custer chose to leave behind, out of reach, didn't play a part at the time no matter what caliber.

Repeaters and Schofields would have probably changed the outcome.   There probably would have been a higher loss on the Indian's side.   Since they fairly quickly over ran Custer's 1/3 of his forces, the loss probably would not have been much higher on the Indian's side, but the same 100% of Custer's party.     

Several years ago I read an article about research at the Little Big Horn. The scientists were trying to determine just what weapons were used by the Indians and the 7th Cav during that battle in June of 1876. Using metal detection equipment it took several months of surveys to complete their effort.
The majority of shell casings were .44 Henry with some .44 WCF in the perimeter outside where the troopers finally stood their ground .......majority quantities found of the US 7th Cav positions were .45-70 with some 44 WCF, probably from the Pawnee scouts. Interestingly enough, no .45 Colt or Schofield shell casing were discovered.....which means either the troops never got to shoot their pistols or never had the opportunity to reload.

[Davem]

Well, Reno used his head, got into good ground, and wasn't wiped out and he had the same firearms.  I think Custer underestimated his enemy. Got strung out and chopped to bits.  Probably would have been the same with the better firepower.

[Trailrider]

Firepower can certainly make a difference...up to a point. Defensive positions make all the difference when being attacked by a greatly numerically superior force. In the Beecher Island battle, Sandy Forsyth's 50 scouts were probably outnumbered 4-to-1. A number of his scouts had been killed or wounded, including the major, himself, as well as his second-in-command, 1LT Fred. Beecher, who was morally wounded.  The Cheyenne were primarily mounted, and should have been able to roll over the scouts. But the scouts were dug in on the sandbar (island) in the mittle of the shallow creek, and were armed with Spencer Repeating Rifles (termed carbines, but they may have been armed with Spencer rifles from 3rd Infantry stores), plus a few Trapdoor Springfields (.50-70), and at least one Henry Repeating Rifle belonging to Fred Beecher.  The consolidated position plus firepower made the difference. It made the difference in the case of Reno's and Benteen's troop, although firepower, per se, was less of a factor than the position.  There are other examples, but I won't take the bandwidth.

[St. George]

Training and discipline - coupled with experienced leadership on the ground make the difference as well.

Custer's troopers had none of that, and when everything suddenly exploded all around them, they were overwhelmed, as inexperienced soldiers often are.

Since this is one of those 'What If' threads - they could 'all' have had Henrys, and they would still have fallen.

But think on this:

What if they'd been Custer's Civil War Cavalry command - the Michigan Wolverines?

Those boys were well-disciplined, battle-tested and battle-hardened - experienced killers with good Non-Coms and Company-Grades, and were under the command of a man they trusted.

Given like numbers, they'd have given enough of an accounting of themselves that the battle would have just been another of the many battles comprising the Indian Wars.

Scouts Out!

[Mike]

I think the other thing to remember is they under estermated the numbers of indians they would in counter and the wrong mental attitude to plan properly.

[St. George]

Bluntly, they weren't well-trained and they were exhausted - with tired horses.

Suddenly encountering all those hostiles primed and ready just erased all sense of discipline and unit cohesiveness in the face of abject fear, and nothing had previously prepared them for that.

Scouts Out!

[Bruce W Sims]

A combination of latest survey of the battlefield as well as a review of the testimony of
Native American accounts seems to suggest that rather than a battle, Little Big Horn
was a rapid series of skirmishes over a rather wide area leading up to the final encounter.
As mentioned earlier, had the troops been battle-tested and rested, a secure and well-defined
perimeter would have been established with defined fields of fire and it may have been enough to give
the attacking forces pause. Throw in the technology and it may well have tipped the balance...maybe.

As it is, examination of remains of troopers suggests a prevalence of disease, arthritis and infection
not previously in evidence. Add to this the heat, poor nutrition and lack of adequate rest for man and beast
and I think the outcome was unavoidable.  Just sayin...

BTW: As I understand it, there may have been one fella who survived the battle. Seems a fella was shot and his horse bolted.
In telling his tale years later there was some evidence to substantiate his testimony. Anyone else ever heard of this?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Davem]

I can't remember the details but I heard that story.  On Custer's movements, I thought he was taking the fight to the NDNs and they couldn't believe it because of their numeral superiority.

[treebeard]

Bruce--- the man that may have survived the LBH is Frank Finkel. There is a very interesting book on his
Possible escape and also articles you can google up.  There is no absolute proof but I personally believe
The story. There are pros and cons that are interesting to weigh.

[St. George]

But no actual facts or scholarship to back it up.

Oh, well...

Why let facts get in the way?

Scouts Out!

[Bruce W Sims]

Bruce--- the man that may have survived the LBH is Frank Finkel. There is a very interesting book on his
Possible escape and also articles you can google up.  There is no absolute proof but I personally believe
The story. There are pros and cons that are interesting to weigh.

Thanks, Tree:

I think I ran into a TV program during a channel-check. I'm going to GOOGLE for a bit today.

IIRC there was some truth to the trail he described getting away from the battle, and some abandoned
items were found approximately where he might have left them. OTOH, there was also some talk about his having been grazed
and lighting-out before the battle was actually joined. IDK.....just musing now..... Thanks again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[treebeard]

The book is " Custer Survivor" by John Koster. It is on Amazon.com.  If your local library does not have it
They can get it thru inter library loan.  It's a fun read.

[Davem]

Off hand, given the soldiers were hacked apart and riddled with hundreds of arrows, etc.- it doesn't seem possible anyone escaped.
The Fetterman Massacre, I think (not sure) that the troops got strung out pursuing what they thought was a handful of NDNs and then the jaws of the trap were sprung. Custer has to bear some responsibility for how everyone was deployed.
   If Custer had better arms, plenty of ammunition, and had taken up a good defensive position- could he have survived?  Well, since Reno did, it may well have been possible.

[Chev. William]

A Semi uninformed Personal Opinion:
I think The "Generals Involved" were still Fighting the Previous War, rather than fighting the Present War, using Current Intelligence/Information available at the time Before the 'campaign' was started.

Question 1:  How many Cartridges were issued to individual Troopers for Carry on his Person?
Question 2:  What was the Total Cartridge number Issued per Trooper, including both the Personal load and the Pack train Load?

I am GUESSING, but It seems GAC figured resupply was only scant hours away when in fact it was much Further in time from the point of his need in Battle.
It appears he was fighting an American Civil war Campaign, where Resupply was close at hand normally, rather than an Indian wars Campaign, where Resupply was further away in time and distance.

If my Understanding iis Faulty, please correct me.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

Most of the soldiers had most of their ammo in their saddle bags.  Subsequently, when the horses got ran off by the Indians, they were stuck with what they had on their person, which wasn't a whole lot.  Basically, they ran out of ammo.

Re: Gatling guns.  They wouldn't of helped Custer at all.  Hard to maneuver in that type of terrain with the Indians being scattered and undulating ground.  Reno may have had a better opportunity with the Gatling guns when he was in the valley, as it was level ground and the Indian village to his front
The view from my saddle

[St. George]

Training and discipline - coupled with experienced leadership on the ground make the difference..

Custer's scared, green troopers had none of that, and when everything suddenly exploded all around them, they were overwhelmed, as inexperienced soldiers often are.

Since this is one of those 'What If' threads that everyone's so fond of - they could 'all' have had Henrys, Spencers, Winchesters and a Gatling or three, and they would still have fallen, because 'terror' would have caused them to give up their positions and seek shelter and safety with the larger force.

Nowhere before or since would the Frontier Army encounter the number of Indians all in one place and ready to dance, but dance they did at the Greasy Grass, and Custer's men weren't ready for that, by a long shot.

But think on this:

What if they'd been Custer's Civil War Cavalry command - the Michigan Wolverines?

Those boys were well-disciplined, battle-tested and battle-hardened - experienced killers with good Non-Coms and Company-Grades, and were under the command of a man they trusted.

Those were men that knew their trade of killing - led by the men who'd trained them.

Given like numbers, they'd have given enough of an accounting of themselves that the battle would have just been another of the many battles comprising the Indian Wars.

Taking a look  at actual forensic evidence as gathered during the archaeological finds, you'll see:

Forehand & Wadsworth .32 Rimfire
Colt .36
Colt .38
Sharps .40 -.45 and .50
Ethan Allen or Forehand & Wadsworth .42
S&W American .44
Evans Old model .44
Henry .44
200-gr .44
Miscellaneous and Unknown .40
Winchester .44-40
Colt and S&W .45
Springfield .45-55
.45 Unidentified
Spencer
Unidentified .50 rimfire
Springfield .50-70
Maynard
Miscellaneous and Unidentified .50
Starr
Enfield
Round Ball - .44, .45, .50
Shot

No identifiable Webley rounds were found.

The above are attributal to all of the sites investigated.

More on this is found in 'Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Big Horn' - by Scott, Fox, Connor and Harmon.

It's the record of the digs conducted across the battlefield after the grass fires of August 1983 stripped off all of the thatch and underbrush of the site - and the follow-on 1984-85 dgging season that completely covered the area.

This is the print version of what you've seen on 'The History Channel', and it goes into great depth, as archaeological work does - yet it's compelling...

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

(snip for bandwidth)
Question:  How many Cartridges were issued to individual Troopers for Carry on his Person?
Question:  What was the Total Cartridge number Issued per Trooper, including both the Personal load and the Pack train Load?I am GUESSING, but It seems GAC figured resupply was only scant hours away when in fact it was much Further in time from the point of his need in Battle.
It appears he was fighting an American Civil war Campaign, where Resupply was close at hand normally, rather than an Indian wars Campaign, where Resupply was further away in time and distance.
If my Understanding iis Faulty, please correct me.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Standard issue was usually 60-100 rounds of .45--55 carbine or .45-70 rifle rounds. BUT...depending on how the trooper was packing his ammo, he was probably wearing no more than 40 rounds in a saddler-made prairie belt, or 20 rounds in a single Dyer pouch and the rest in his saddle bags. (The M1876 canvas belts had around 52 loops. He would have been issued 24 rounds of .45 Colt pistol ammo, some probably carried in a converted CW pistol cap pouch, 5 or 6 rounds in the revolver (depending on how safety conscious his NCO or company commander was).
According to an Indian who participated in the battle, it took "no more time than a hungry man to eat his lunch!" for the Indians to overwhelm Custer's immediate command.  I seriously doubt Custer's troops either ran out of ammo or had their carbines jam from the heat and fouling produced by rapid fire. They didn't live that long! It is estimated (based on the archeological dig) that around 243 INdians had firearms of any kind...more than Custer had men in his battalion.  But the major factor in thei anihilation was that the troops were spread out (except for the Last Stand group), and were facing a deadly assault from rapid-fire, high trajectory anti-personnel weapons...arrows!

BTW, the Indians weren't ready and waiting for Custer. Most had been participating in a Sun Dance ritual the night before, and were asleep. They just reacted faster to Reno's attack, and then circled around to engage Custer once Reno's forces had been "contained".  Were it not for having twice the men, and some luck, Crook might have faced the same fate at the Rosebud, a week earlier.