Nothing points like my 1860s

[Blair]

Does NCOWS allow a cartridge conversion or Open Top chambered in 45 colt or 45 S&W?

These firearms in these chambering are also modern innovations/inventions - "not made pre 1900".

Just my opinion... but if the firearms, in this case, are allowed, an exception to a short cartridge should be allowed too.
My best,
Blair

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Blair,

I like your logic.  This question ought to be put to NCOWS officials.  44 Russian & 44 Special seem to be allowed.  I have a brace of Ruger Vaqueros that are chambered in 44 ELR.  (Extra Long Russian)/44 Mag. that shoot all three.  Which of those might be allowed?

DD-MDA

[Blair]

DD,

I was actually rather surprised that the 45 Special was not approved by NCOWS.
But then again, I don't know that for sure. Anymore than I know if the arms mentioned are legal or not.
That was why I asked the question.
Maybe a NCOWS Judge, past or present, will help add to this information base?
My best,
Blair

[Capt. JEB Forrest]

.44 S&W American, .44 S&W Russian, .45 Colt, .45 S&W  are allowed. .44 Special/.44 Magnum are allowed if loaded with black powder or loaded with heathen, fad, powder to black powder velocities.

'72 open tops are allowed as well as conversion cylinders by Kirst and R&D.

[Blair]

Capt. JEB Forrest,

Thank you.

No mention of the 45 Special. Do you know, is there a reason for this?

It is an excellent cartridge for those Cartridge Conversions and '72 Open Tops revolvers now being chambered in .45 cal.
My best,
Blair

[Cuts Crooked]

As I recall, and I admit it's been a few years, the .45 Special was disallowed by NCOWS because of the perceived advantage it gave in the form of lowered recoil. NCOWS, at the time, felt this was somewhat akin to the "short stroked" 66 and 73 rifles.

In short (pun intended  ) it was looked at as a "gamer" device and, right or wrong, it was denied as an NCOWS cartridge. Reasoning was, "it didn't exist within the time frame". Now, I admit it approximates some cartidges that did exist, but they were never chambered in the Colt conversions or the Open Top.

Mind you, I could be wrong, it has been a while back, but that's kinda/sorta how I recommember things.

[Blair]

Cuts Crooked,

Thank you.
I understand the objections.

I guess my next question would be; Are the Cartridge Conversions and Open Tops that are chambered in .45 Cal. allowed?

Then wouldn't "it didn't exist within the time frame" hold equally true for these revolvers chambered in .45 cal.?

My best,
Blair

[Dick Dastardly]

I don't want to pick a fight, but I think the Cowboy 45 Special is a natural for NCOWS.  This mild recoiling very accurate cartridge should be evaluated.  No, it's not ancient, but it is much in keeping with conversion cartridges of the period.

DD-MDA

[Pettifogger]

.45 Cowboy Special on the left.  On the right a mystery round.



And the mystery round is -



They look pretty much the same to me.

[Montana Slim]

Cuts Crooked,

Thank you.
I understand the objections.

I guess my next question would be; Are the Cartridge Conversions and Open Tops that are chambered in .45 Cal. allowed?

Then wouldn't "it didn't exist within the time frame" hold equally true for these revolvers chambered in .45 cal.?

My best,
Blair

In NCOWS.....Essentially, approved calibers are valid in approved revolver types.....If you refer to the common Kirst and R&D conversion cylinders, or to the common Uberti RM & 1872 Opentop, then yes...these are approved.
.45 Colt and .45 SW are approved cartridges.
Details available on the NCOWS website http://www.ncows.org/
The .45 CS does not appear to be approved at this time. Gamer image does not help, but I don't know this is the hangup. Few would consider my .45 CS load of 225gr RN bullet over a compressed load of 3F a gamer round....that is if they fired it.

Slim

[Dick Dastardly]

It would seem that the cartridge label, "Cowboy 45 Special" has put off some NCOWS people.  Please give it further consideration.  I'll be happy to supply working drawings shouls that be requested. Fundamentally, the Cowbly 45 Special brass is a 45ACP body on a 45 Colt base.  I load it with 1.3cc of bp (20 brains) and it does my work very well without excessive recoil.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Since I mentioned the 45 Cowboy Special cartridge, it's up to me to set the NCOWS record straight.  I was highly involved with the rulings that came about back then.

It had nothing to do with recoil or the label "45 Cowboy Special."   It had everything to do with the fact that the round didn't exist pre-1900.

So why are 38 Spl. & 44 Spl. allowed? (And a few other 20th Century things.)  They are modern rounds - at least modern by 19th Century standards.  45 Colt IS an authentic round.   

The fact is that Cowboy shooting, basically started and created by SASS had already made them legal, so they were sort of Grandfathered in.  NCOWS wants to stay as authentic as possible. Modern rounds, short-stroking, etc. are all modern advances.  We don't hold with the "If they coulda, they woulda" train of thought.

When in SASS - play using SASS rules.  Same for NCOWS.  Or IPSC.  Whatever your game allows.

I assure you that many of us NCOWS folk also are SASS folk.  And just because we NCOWS folks don't allow Glocks & AR15s in competition because it isn't "authentic to the Pre-1900 time period," doesn't mean we don't like, own, or  use them.

As I said in my original post, and as Dick D has pointed out, the 45 CS is a fine caliber and if the rules allowed, would be a fine chambering. 

Jeff "Steel Horse Bailey"
NCOWS #1919 For Life
SASS Life #27463.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

.45 Cowboy Special on the left.  On the right a mystery round.



And the mystery round is -



They look pretty much the same to me.

I was going to point out the similarity but yabeetme2it. Yes the 19th Century British military rounds starting with the .45 Adams all have a basic similarity to the basic .45 Colt or S&W, with the exception of length and a thinner rim. (.070 v. .035 for the Brit cases) That .455 Colt, a re-labled .455Webley Mk I, was chambered by Colt but I'm not sure when.

I am not sure whether the issue was brought before NCOWS? Perhaps SHB would know?

BTW: That headstamp is of the Dominium Cartridge Company, a Canadian home grown enterprise. One of the founders was "GAT" Howard. He was a US Cavalry officer who came to Canada with a Gatling gun in 1885 and demonstrated the Gat on behalf of Canadian forces surpressing the Riel Rebellion. Gat later served as the machine gun officer of the Canadian Mounted Rifles in the Anglo-Boer War. He remained in South Africa, I believe with the SA Constabulary and was killed in a sort of reversal of the Breaker Morant incident

[Cuts Crooked]

Rerun!!     http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,10672.0.html It would appear that the "gamer factor" was a consideration after all. At any rate, NCOWS did consider the cartridge and disallowed it.

[Dick Dastardly]

It's ok Cuts.  I'll just make sure that if I shoot a NCOWS match that I have my guns and ammo approved by the caliber chiefs. . .

Until then, those little 1860 open tops continue to perform just fine in SASS matches.

DD-MDA

[Bruce W Sims]

I have a number of fine SASS capable pistols, but none point, shoot and score like my brace of 1860 open tops.  They are fragile compared to my RVs and ROAs but they just point better.  It may be me, or my hands or even my old eyes, but I get more clean matches with these.  They have Kirst Konverter cylinders and ejector rods.  I load them with Cowboy 45 Special ammo with a compressed charge of Schuetzen FFFg under J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullets and they hit where they look.

I don't quite know how to qualify the accuracy in match shooting that they deliver but they have become my go to guns for Cowboy Action shooting.  I shoot Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter exclusivly and one of these in each hand comes natural to me.  What a joy to shoot.

DD-MDA

Hey, Dick:  You folks are talking waaay above my pay grade, but I noticed you mentioned the Kirst Konverter and I ran across these looking for a couple of spare cylinders for my Dragoon. Two questions came to mind. How tricky is it to find a converter cylinder for my Colt replica, and how much is it a pain to take the cylinder out each time a fella needs to dump his empties. Thoughts? Best Wishes,
Bruce

[rbertalotto]

These 1851s I just picked up might just point as well.............

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Mr. Simms,

I have Kirst Konverter cylinders for my Ruger Old Armies and taking the cylinder out to dump the empties is not a problem.  The unloading station worker really likes the view of the empty cylinder. . .  I don't replace the cylinders but load them at the loading table and replace them there when it's my turn to load.  Again, not a worry.

My lil open tops have loading gates and extractors so they work much like 73s.

DD-MDA

[Tornado]

Hey, Dick:  You folks are talking waaay above my pay grade, but I noticed you mentioned the Kirst Konverter and I ran across these looking for a couple of spare cylinders for my Dragoon. Two questions came to mind. How tricky is it to find a converter cylinder for my Colt replica, and how much is it a pain to take the cylinder out each time a fella needs to dump his empties. Thoughts? Best Wishes,
Bruce

The finding part is easy:
http://www.kirstkonverter.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=5&cat=Walker+%26+Dragoon+Konverters
It would be a pain to pop the wedge out and pull the barrel off each time you wanted to load, but that is why they come with loading gates.  You have to grind off a fair amount of steel to install them, it took me awhile to work up the courage to cut my '60,  it is not hard to do though.  Kirst offers that service for an extra fee, see options in link above.
If you are not interested in the loading gate, Howell/R&D makes a conversion cylinder for the Dragoon that does not have the loading gate:
http://www.howelloldwestconversions.com/shop/productinfo.cfm?catID=261&productid=807&cfid=2950119&cftoken=ed44ce7d675c04ee-5AC94983-F2F7-A06E-D04DFAAE97555DA4

[rbertalotto]

Dremel makes a grinding wheel the exact size needed to cut the loading gate slot. You will need one wheel per gun as they wear out quite fast. I believe it is the 1/2" diameter wheel.

It takes about 15 minutes to grind out the slot allowing the metal to cool a bit between grinding.

Very easy to do. Use the cylinder to check the alignment as you grind.