Nothing points like my 1860s

[Dick Dastardly]

I have a number of fine SASS capable pistols, but none point, shoot and score like my brace of 1860 open tops.  They are fragile compared to my RVs and ROAs but they just point better.  It may be me, or my hands or even my old eyes, but I get more clean matches with these.  They have Kirst Konverter cylinders and ejector rods.  I load them with Cowboy 45 Special ammo with a compressed charge of Schuetzen FFFg under J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullets and they hit where they look.

I don't quite know how to qualify the accuracy in match shooting that they deliver but they have become my go to guns for Cowboy Action shooting.  I shoot Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter exclusivly and one of these in each hand comes natural to me.  What a joy to shoot.

DD-MDA

[rbertalotto]

Wow! Can't believe you are posting this!

I bought a set of Pieta 1860 London Colts a couple years ago. Outfitted them with Kirst converters. I shoot the Big Lube 170 in the Cowboy 45 Special brass. I have a few other sets of revolvers...1858 conversions, 1873 Colts in 38-40, Rugers in 45LC

This year I decided to shoot nothing but the 1860

In the past (only been shooting CAS for a bit over two years) I'd have 5-6 misses in a six stage match.

Two weeks ago I shot a 6 stage clean on a Saturday and and had one miss on a six stage at another club on the Sunday. This past weekend I shot the "Great NorEaster" clean (with a P!!!).

So this makes 22 stages with one miss, and my times are in the top third.

Yup, those 1860s just point naturally for me. I don't even look at the sights!

I had bought the ejector rods, but I find leaving the ram in place allows them to slip into the holster much better. I use a short brass rod I carry in one of my bullet loops to eject brass at the unloading table.

I love em!

[Thumb Buster]

While my 1860 is percussion I trust its P.O.A. explicitly.  Went to the range to try my theory of just that.  Forty rounds on paper at twenty yards with only one flyer.  Trust the P.O.A.

[Noz]

Interesting! I have a pair of conversion cylinders, 250 C45S, and 500 45 Slims in the mail. All for use in my 1860s. I figure I can practice a bit with the conversions and have them handy if it starts to rain on the cap cylinders.

[Coffinmaker]

Well ...... I must agree.  The why of it is intriguing though.  If you talk Peabody into a ride in his "way back" you'll find Sam Colt and Co. designing the THE most naturally pointing hand gun ever.  The 1851.  THE most ergonomically correct handgun, devised before there was a word like ergonomic.  I don't think it's written, what resulted in the final design.
Now to the 1860.  The 1860 is an 1851, slightly modified.  The weights and balances are just about the same.  In fact, the first 1860s were manufactured with the basic 1851 grip.  The Army grip was a result of military requirements to allow for a cavalry troopers gloves.  The modifications were few.  Rebate the water table for the .44 cylinder, change the barrel shape to the more flowing 1860 profile, fit longer grips.  Still basically an 1851.  The only real departure came with the itty bitty 1862.
I also cartridge convert my 1860s but I use the R&D type conversion cylinder to avoid cutting the frame for cartridges and I swap back and fourth with percussion cylinders.
The Cowboy 45 Special case is just perfect for this application.  I do however prefer very light bullets.  Recoil wusse.
You'd be amazed at what can be done with a basic Pietta 1851 if your not to picky about being absolutely authentic.  Gobs of fun!!!!

Coffinmaker

[Dick Dastardly]

FWIW, the Cowboy 45 Special brass is the same internal volume as the 'man stopper' 1911 45 Colt ACP.  It's not a 'wussy' load at all.  I load it with the 200 grain J/P 45-200 bullets over 1.3cc of FFFg Schuetzen powder.  The timers all say it roars just fine.

I don't like to shoot full house 45 Colt ammo in the more fragile 1860 open tops.  It's my opinion that they'd just shoot loose and be ruined.

DD-MDA

[Coffinmaker]

DDD !!!  I am in total agreement.  The ONLY concession I make with the C45S case is bullet weight.  It "bellows" just fine and makes enough smoke one ca  make use of a surplus Radar unit to find the targets.

I hasten to agree.  The internal volume is the same as the .45 ACP.  You are correct, loading it up is not wise when considering the strength of Open Top design guns.  Anything much past what a full case of 3f produces will shoot the guns to ruin in a very short time indeed.
In all the years I made my way working on CAS guns, I was and still am of the opinion it was a huge mistake on Uberti's part  to chamber Open Top design guns in .45 Colt.  It is very easy to load the .45 Colt, in a modern cartridge, well beyond factory .44 Magnum.  Which will, and has disassembled an Open Top revolver.

I digress.  The 1860 is a fantastic gun, and set up for max reliability,  can and does run with anything else in CAS.  With a caveat.   Running em traditional style, like a Ruger, ant good for em.  But ...... For us Frontier Cartridge Gunfighters, they be SOME SWEET!!

Coffinmaker

[Tornado]

I love my Pietta/Kirst 1860 too.  I didn't like the Army grips though, so I swapped to some Navy's.

[44caliberkid]

The 1860  is the best revolver design ever made and my all time favorite. I own one original, made in 1863 and two Belgian Centaurs.  I also have a bunch of Uberti, Pietta, and ASM reproductions, more than I know off the top of my head, probably twenty or more. I have conversion cylinders for some.  My next goal is to get some of the Cimmaron Richards conversions in  44 Colt, of course.

[Long Johns Wolf]

FWIW my cartridge of choice in Belgian 1860 conversions is the .44 Colt inside lubed cartridge topped with 200 grainers.
Their barrels are lined for the .429 inside lubed bullets.
Pointability of the pistols is just fine.
Long Johns Wolf

[rifle]

Those Cowboy 45 special short brass cartridges are akin to the cartridge that was chosen for the 1860 Army when converted.

Makes sense to me to use something akin to what was originally used to convert the Army revolver.

I forgot what powder charge was originally in the 44 Colt cartridge but it wasn't a magnum but still served well. Was it 22-24gr. powder?

I thunk......really......using a bullet with a short bearing surface and close to the weight of the ball would have an Army workin well fer a long time.

Having an alignment of the chambers to the centerline of the bore that was proper would be a good thing for longevity as would using a bullet that was sized to be right at what the barrels groove diameter is.
Using pure lead bullets and not hard cast bullets would help longevity also.

Of course using the ball in the cartridges would be easier on the gun then the percussions loads since the cartridges hold less powder.

Only thing to contend with using the ball would be finding a way to lube the danged things.

An Hombre or Hombrete could always go to a lil exra trouble using the balls and make wool wads saturated with a wax/lube or go all the way and make some lube pills(grease cookies).

I've loaded the balls in my brass. Works good. Not real hard on the Army revolver. Full loads of powder in the 45 Colt cases is a lil hot but the loads of powder in the 44 Colt is alright fer the 1860 Army.
Using balls in the 44 Colt cases is actually easier on the 1860 then the percussion loads.

Optimum ball size is .430 but that requires a modified ball mould or....the .433's from Speer can work...depending how the seat-crimp die you use is. You can always make a steel swag with a .430 hole and a slight funnel to the beginning and size the balls from .433 to .429-.430. That makes a slight band around the ball to orient it in a case.

Anywhoooooo.......I still have an 1860 type revlver chambered in 44 Colt and that's what I use since 44 Special is too long i that gun. It's fired thousands of smokeless and black powder cartridges and is still like it was in the beginning. I stay with the 200gr. bullet and keep the velosities close to what the black powder load gives.

That danged 44 Colt chambered 1860 seems to hit everything it's pointed at even if it's loaded with the lead balls. The black powder loads can dirty the shallow rifling and cause some strays but if the lube pills are working it stays on course.

The softer the lube is the better it works but....it's hard to handle very soft lube pills to load the cartridges. I harden thema bit with an extra bit of paraffin and if need be swipe a jag and patch thru the chambers and bore now and then.

Now and then when I'd out shootin and the hound gets loose I thunk he tracks me by scentin the dirty patches. Maybe....he scents the black powder smoke on the breeze.

[Montana Slim]

1860 C&B are my magic pistols...only "missed" targets with these in recent years was due to bad caps.
I've managed quite a few clean matches with the 1860....great gun.

Slim

[Noz]

RE: My post above about the C45S cases and bullets ordered. The cases have been her for 4 weeks but no bullets.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Noz,

I've got a good supply of 45Slim molds on hand.  Give me a hollar if'n you need one.

DD-MDA

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Normally, I'm a 45 Colt fan.  However, I think that the 1860 Army is THE most beautifully shaped and designed revolver of all time.  And when I started looking into the various conversions and Open Tops (the 1871or2) that 1860 beauty carried over mostly.  The ejector tube adds a certain look but so did the rammer on the C&B versions that - to me - is a trifle prettier.  But no matter.  When I took the plunge and decided on an O/T, I got it chambered in 44 Special.  I like having caliber options.  However, for all of my shooting I use 44 Colt.  The 44 BigLube pills with as much 3F as I can cram in the case, then mash it down, putting a good, firm crimp on it.  Then shoot.

The accuracy is fine - the smoke and B*O*O*M are wunnerful!  As is all my other BP shooting.

FUN!!!

[Dick Dastardly]

Just back from Squinty Eye.  Fantastic shoot.  My 1860 open tops didn't fail me, but my ammo did.  I had two well dented caps on one stage.  They didn't fire.  Don't know why.  I'll dig 'em out from my spent brass and see if they'll go boom now.  If not, they cost me a clean match regardless.

Love 'em '60 open tops.

DD-MDA

[olpete37]

howdy  ol pete here  interesting posts re the 1860 45 conversions  ive gotta question...do you folks use 45 schofield brass for this, or is the 45 cowboy special  brass a diferent and specific size brass?  IF SO  WHERE DO YOU GET IT?   thanks  ol pete

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Ol Pete, I answered your IM.  Call me.  That brass is available online.  As for the 45 Schofield brass (properly named "45 S&W") look at the Starline website.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-SandW-Schofield-Brass/

Cowboy 45 Special (NOT legal for NCOWS shooting, but good stuff)
http://cowboy45specialbrass.blogspot.com/

Why not legal?  It is a modern invention - not made pre 1900.  But like I said, it IS quality and has a lot going for it.

[rbertalotto]

Just to be clear...Cowboy 45 Special is allowed in SASS....Just not allowed in NCOWS

[Dick Dastardly]

Since the C45Spl is basically a 46 Rimfire made central fire, it should be allowed in NCOWS.  There are many examples of this kind of conversion before 1900.  The name "Cowboy 45 Special" is the hangup in the narrow minds of some NCOWS officials.

Whatever, the short 45 Cal 45 Colt head brass shoots great in 45 Colt chambered pistols.  Perhaps NCOWS would have preferred "45 Colt Short"?

DD-MDA