Do you know these USFA guns?

[yahoody]

Picked up an unusual (for me anyway) pair of China Camp 32-20 guns recently.  Gary thought they left the factory in the late '90s or early 2000.  Mid CC200 range, con sec numbers.

I have boxes and paper work and the original white cotton bags but no box labels.  Nice old ivory on them.  Anyone know the history behind them?  They have been shot some and figure a CAS/SASS shooter likely owned them at some point.   Apppreciate the help.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Welcome to the forum, Yahoody.  Hopefully, someone here might know something about your China Camps.  I've got to say, those are some gorgeous ivory grips you have there!
CJF

[yahoody]

Thank you Captain.

I'm a little farther along today.  Found the engraver:

http://www.thegunengraver.com/

Couple of shots of the end butt on each gun.  Good grain and color on some nice, old, aged ivory.
Just makes the pair more interesting to me.  Even more so is that the grips match cosmetically but don't for size and feel of the grip.  The one thing I find lacking in the pair is they weren't actually matched as shooters.  But some real effort was made to match them cosmetically as wall hangers.  I have little interest in wall hangers.

[Frank V]

I know you have a beautiful pair of USFA six-guns, & the .32-20 is a fun ctg.
Thanks for sharing & enjoy, if you shoot them I'd sure like a range report!

[yahoody]

Haven't shot them yet Frank but will.  My lovely wife has a 32-20 Model 53 that she uses.  And at one time had a pair of 32-20s that I sold.  Late last month when this pair showed up was our 20 year anni.  You can immagine what she envisioned these were for 

Silly woman!  This from a woman who doesn't typically even like ivory let alone want to shoot it.  I might be forced to loan them to her on occasion

Been sorting them out a bit.  Had to fix one of the grips that was coming apart.  Realised one of he guns is unfired.  Forcing cones are uncut.  Both needed a new set of springs and finally had a bent up ejector rod (never seen that one) needing to be rebent.  (edit: but found shooting them how it likely got bent.."pounding out stuck cases" by the previous owner)

I really like the 32-20 but it is such a little rascal to reload for.  Guess I need to pose those questions else where. 

But anyone else shooting 32-20?  If so what is the secret getting the brass loaded and fitting in the chamber?  Trimming the brass?
Currently using Lee dies and Oregon trail bullets.  New brass (when I had it) was easy.  Once fired stuff  has me cold.

 

[GaryG]

New brass is made to the proper specs.  I reload on a Dillon and the Dillon shell plate is a little thicker than most.  I solved the problem by taking off about 40 thousandths from the bottom of my resizing die thus moving the cartridge shoulder back to the proper specs. 

[Frank V]

It's been so long since I loaded for the .32-20 & that was in a Win mod 92, that I've forgotten what I was loading.
What I do remember is it is a fun, accurate, small/medium game ctg.
Let us know when you get to the range, we'd like a report.
Thanks.

[yahoody]

Thanks Gary.  Dillions here as well.  Your suggest solved the problem.  Lot more mechanical leverage on the lever guns to close on bad brass.  Never noticed just how bad my loads really were.  Always thought it was the chamber on my original Armi San Marco 32-20 SAA.  Problem solved now...thanks again!

Now if only I had a Square Deal in 32-20 ;-)

[yahoody]

I know you have a beautiful pair of USFA six-guns, & the .32-20 is a fun ctg.
Thanks for sharing & enjoy, if you shoot them I'd sure like a range report!

Still having a hard time getting the reloader set up right.  Forgot I originally loaded 32-20 on a RCBS machine 25 years or so ago.  Back then I was just loading hot for rifles, a 92 Winchester and a 94 Marlin.  Fun guns for head shots on our little white tails at the time. 

Anyway I have now shot one of the USFA CC guns some.  The other is still unfired.  Likely to stay that way till I get the loads sorted out.  Primer flow from the rifle loads when shot in the pistol locks it up.  They are too hot and too damn loud!  Not as thrilled with the 32-20 as Elmer was 

Not sure what they sighted the China Camps in with for ammo.  I shot Winchester, Remington and some generic off brand loads today.  All were lead 100gr.  And all were shooting low.  But the groups were on for windage @ 15 and 25yds.   Pleased at the groups.  Once I get a load I can live with I'll eventually cut the front sights down to the smaller 32WCF Colt configuration/height.   At the moment I am still buffing out the surface sharpness left over from Mr. Downing's $1000+ engraving jobs.  Next up after that is to refit the ivory.

Target pictured was at 15 yards..12 rounds.  Little off center to the left but could just as well been me or the light on the bright shiny front sight.   Shot not quite half again that big again at 25yds but 3.5" low instead of 1" low.     Down into the plate ripples @ 25.  Easy enough to fix later if required.  32-20 is no big bore but fun to shoot none the less.  Too bad my rifle rounds won't function in this one.  You are fully aware you have a gun in hand when you pop one of the HV rifle loads in the short barrel on this one!




I figure point of aim/point of impact can be fiddled with some once I get a 110gr. lead load I like.

[Frank V]

I'm a bit late, but that is well worth fiddling with.
Beauriful gun! Thanks for sharing.

[Blackey Cole]

Most if not all SAAs and Rugers as well get the same front sight on all barrel lengths and the sight is designed for the 71/2 inch barrels so they shoot low on the shorter barrels.  You can adjust it some with the loading of the round but the rest has to be manually adjusted if you want them to shoot poa with a perfect sight picture.  I myself adjust the sight picture subconsciously

[yahoody]

Good point.   First gen Colts came with specific sights for the caliber.  45. 44-40, 28-40 all have different size sights.  32-20 being the smallest of them.  Even the 3rd gen Colt 44-40 and 32-20s still come with different and a smaller front sights than a 45.   

Although it is a Bisley, pretty common front sight size seen on a 32-20 below.



And a typical 45 Colt front sight for comparison.



and a pair of 3rd gen Colt's 32-20 with the smaller front sight appropriate for the caliber.  A point USFA missed (good as they were) on this pair, as have the replicas I've owned from Armi San Marco, Cimerron and EMF.



a third gen 45 below


You can shoot true lwt plinkers that are a gallery loads for bullet weight and powder charge or a "32 magnum" with a 115g loads that will flatten small rifle primers depending on your preferences.  Nice to have some extra front sight to play with.

[GaryG]

USFA, at least while I was there, used different front sights depending on the caliber and barrel length.   Front sights were cut on an EDM machine in strips of about 30 pieces.  Of course the biggest variable was the shooter.  Occasionally an owner would ship his gun back asking for a taller (or shorter) front sight.   

[Frank V]

I never sent one back... All Mine suffered from the aforementioned issue  called "the shooter".

[yahoody]

Some times a harmonious outcome seems nearly impossible in life.

Other times we get lucky and life is good.  Few things in the world are as great pleasure as that of a good dog, a good horse, a good woman or a good six gun.  All generally take time, patience and affection to achieve the desired goals.

In this particular case a #2 Swiss Pattern file helped some too

I've spent enough time on the range to know almost any shooter can be helped by a high quality gun.  More people out shoot their own guns than you might first imagine.  Or simply don't know the little things that can make shooting accurately a LOT easier.   Good place to start for a gun used either for self defense or any action pistol sport is make the guns shoot ACTUAL  point of aim.  Bulleseye/6 O'clock holds are only good standing tall, no movement and a perfect stance with a non canted gun hand.   Cant the gun hand a a 6'Oclock hold moves the point of impact right or left depending on which way you cant the gun.  On a six gun often as not just getting the correct windage can be a chore.  Elevation..if it is too low... is easy.     Bullet impact too high and you need a new front sight.

Or a serious change in bullet wights/vel.  Or all three bullet/sight/vel.

Windage on this China Camp 32-20 is perfect at any distance I can hold/hit so were are good there thankfully.

FWIW as most know already, this is not a USFA problem but a Colt pattern SAA problem from any maker.  USFA is by far one of the best SAAs ever made IMO.  And POI is seldom this easy to fix.

The problem on this one? ...gun shoots a full 2" low at 10 yards/30 feet. 
More yet, 4+ inches @ 25 yards.  Cant the gun in hand even a tiny bit either way and rounds will be going all over the target.  If you hit the target at all! 



The way you fix shooting low is cut the front sight.  First thing I did knowing what was coming up was to look at what 1st Gen. Colts used for a front sight pattern on 32-20s.  Factory guns had a smaller than normal front sight.  And as you can see from the many older 32-20s today some of those front sights were still too high and cut down by their owners to hit where they aimed.



Above is the stock profile and drawn on it the profile I would like to cut....but it needs to be done on the range.  Just needed my spectacles, a good sharp Swiss file and some ammo!

I shot 24 rounds @ 10 yards to see where my group was again.  I then slowly cut the front sight down and tried another 6 rounds.  First dozen of so file stokes (new Swiss file and soft steel in the front sight makes is very quick work)  and I was damn close.  Scary close actually and I was trying to go slow!  Gun is almost dead on POA (point of aim) now.

I couldn't do any of this until I got my 32-20 ammo issues sorted out.  Once that was done I was able to sight the gun in knowing it would most generally be shot with my hot 32-20 lead loads.



I'll eventually need to cut a front sight profile I find more appealing to the eye.  But other than trueing up the top so it is square for sight picture and ever so gently beveling the edges, point of aim and point of impact are pretty close where I want them at 10 yards.
It took literally two more very gentle file strokes to get it right.



Gun originally was 2" low at 10 yards as the right target shows.  Now it is hitting POA/POI as the same.  I am very pleased.  And damn lucky I didn't cut too much front sight off.  One really needs to do this ssssllllloooowwwwwly.  Only a few file stokes at a time using a very fine file.



But shooting at 10 yards is child's play by comparison.  What you really want is a gun that shoots POA/POI at 25 yards.  It is a rare beast even in the best high dollar 1911s.  Getting the stars to line up in a SAA from any maker is a true gift.  Those guns are  the "keepers".



Prior the guns was 4" low at 25 yards.  Now the gun is spot on point of aim/point of impact at 25 yards. 

Mind you I was shooting off a sand bag rest to get these groups.  I want to know what the gun will do not what I can do.
And all this with mixed bag brass and terrible reloads as I am still sorting out how to load for the 32-20.   There was a reason the 32WCF was such a popular plinker and target load in BP form.  Purty dang good now as well I think even with my 10'oclock flyer!



When I can put 5 out of 6 rounds into the size of a quarter dollar @ 25 yards off sand bags, I am done.  Not going to do any better, ever.  But I now know the gun will

Thanks everyone for the help here and on the reloading forum.  It made for a very  harmonious outcome

[hanover67]

I have an old Colt Army Special in .32-20. I shoot very mild loads - 115gr cast lead, gas check bullets, 3 gr. Bullseye powder, Winchester small pistol primers.  I crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp Die which has inserts that make sure the cartridge is sized to fit the gun's cylinder. I don't have any problems with ejection with a swing-out cylinder. The crimp die also will not buckle the case when used which is a big help with the thin-walled .32-20 case necks.

[Frank V]

Yahoody
You have found the same thing I found about filing the front sight GO SLOWLY.
I even go so far as to file a little VERY LITTLE then check zero, go home bring the gun back another day & recheck zero, then file a little more, re check, Till I get it right. I even shoot again on another day just to double check to be sure I'm not just shooting differently on a given day.
  Looks like you have it down for this one.
Good shooting. Let us know how you like the .32-20 after you have used it a bit more.
Sounds like a fun ctg.

[yahoody]

Hi Frank.  I have cut down dozens of front sights over the years.  I've learned to do them at the range, @ a specific distance, using the  ammo of choice.

Still surprised how quick it can go and how easy it is to mess up just by missing one part of the equation.  Like making the effort to  carefully sight in close if you want the gun to be on at 25 yards.

Trivia?  Did you know the 32-20 was one of the most popular of all SAA calibers?  Although it was introduced late in 1st generation production (1888) it would often out selling the .45 Colt in the later years of that production run.  (quoted from Don Wilkerson info)

My take is that as the frontier became more and more settled what was really needed was a easy to shoot and effective hand gun for critters and just fun old target shooting (a very popular sport for the family in the day).  Shooting a big, heavy for caliber, SAA with all the excess steel added compared to a 45 Colt easily makes the 32-20 a fun gun to shoot for most any one not concerned about stopping a wild bull or a wild man.

Been shooting the 32-20 in a Browning 53 (my wife's)  since they first came out in the early '90s.  Good for head shooting our little white tail and likely just as good on a lung shot.  They will shoot right through with hot cast lead loads. 

I'm finding I really enjoy shooting the 32-20 once I finally sorted out the reloading with everyone's help.

Less recoil, less bang and smoke.  Have to admit as partial as I am to a 45 and a 44 Special in these guns, I really like the 32-20 as  every bit the big bores equal.  Happy that I have a pair.

[Frank V]

I didn't know the .32-20 was the highest selling caliber. Later in the tail end of the west? It well could have been, I only have experience with it in an old Win. Mod. 92 that I foolishly traded long ago. It wes a lot of fun, accurate, easy to hit with, & really did a number on small game.
  I do know there are an awful lot of Colt Bisleys chambered for the .32-20. I have also heard of several Peace Officers who used it on duty in the SAA.
Thanks for that bit of information. I'm betting you are going to have a lot of fun with it. I keep coming back to look at those beautiful six-guns.

[yahoody]

>I didn't know the .32-20 was the highest selling caliber. Later in the tail end of the west?

yes 1890 to 1900 according to Wilkerson...not highest seller over all just a high seller surpassing the 45 in many years late in the 1 generation guns, 1873 to 1900.

>It well could have been, I only have experience with it in an old Win. Mod. 92 that I foolishly traded long ago. It wes a lot of fun, accurate, easy to hit with, & really did a number on small game.

My experience as well.  Snooky's Winchester loads @ 1600fps  for a lead gas check bullets seem to do wonders on  anything up to small deer for me.  But they jam up a hand gun right quick with primer troubles that don't seem to bother the rifles.

> I do know there are an awful lot of Colt Bisleys chambered for the .32-20.

Which says a lot about popularity of target shooting matches at the turn of the Century...

> I have also heard of several Peace Officers who used it on duty in the SAA.

Me as well.  Passed it off originally as the inexperienced even though the documented use by those involved would say other wise.  When you start thinking about what is needed for self defense...ease of getting off multiple shots and good accuracy with the resulting recoil, the 32-20 starts to make some sense if the 115gr lead loads are hot enough.  I get all that.  But would still rather have a 45, then and now   But others didn't.  38/40 was another popular caliber that I shoot that seems to have a similar following.  38/40 is pretty much a current 40S&W.  The 32-20 more akin to a 30 Carbine.  Both have done well when human are the target with even ball ammo!  I like the 45 over the 44 just because I don't like the added weight in the guns as the caliber gets smaller.   And I like throwing a big bullet.  But one has to shoot some 45 BP loads to really appreciate what a "real" Colt 45 is like to shoot with the old factory ammo.  It is a hand full by any measure.  And makes sense why most carried a 7.5" gun if they shooting civilian 45 BP loads and not the down loaded Army Schofield rounds.

best,
Ya