Installing Colt washers on Californian GW II SAA - need advice

[SilverDollar]

Hello!  I am recently retired and new to CAS.  I have just finally obtained my last two guns necessary for CAS as Great Western II Deluxe 357 mag SAAs but find that, particularly on one gun, the screws back themselves out almost immediately, and after 10 to 50 firings (snap cap, not even powder!) the parts loosen and the screws drop out! 

Luckily I was able to find them but I needed a solution, besides wondering if there was something particularly wrong about the manufacture of this particular brand of revolver, or perhaps this particular pistol.

I decided after discovering that Colts actually have washers, and washers make sense to prevent the screws from backing out, that Californians don't come issued with washers.  So I purchased 8 washers from Colt and managed to install the 3 in the trigger guard (accessed from the bottom) and 2 in the backstrap near the hammer.

These seem to have greatly reduced the backing out of the screws under snap cap firing conditions, which is encouraging.

My question is, since I do not have the resources nor confidence to completely disassemble and re-assemble my gun, is it possible to remove the Trigger, Bolt, and Hammer screw (2 small and one large accessed from the side), one at a time, place the washer on and re-insert without having any internal parts shift or move, particularly those that might be under tension from springs, etc.?

I thought to try and follow the backing out of each screw from the other side with a metal rod to try to maintain any alignment, but if in doing so I suddenly encounter a slip or shift of internal parts and lose the alignment I am out of luck.

Does anyone have enough gunsmithing experience to know whether I can, while the can is fully assembled, take out these three screws, one at a time, install a washer, then screw back in without resulting in a non-functioning and partially internally disassembled gun?

[Abilene]

No, you cannot take out those screws one at a time with the gun otherwise assembled.  Well, you can but parts inside will probably shift.  I've never heard of washers for those three screws.  Blue loctite is your friend.  Many people use it on the various screws of the single actions.  Just be sure to clean off any grease or oil on the threads before using the loctite.

As for disassembling the gun, the SAA is quite easy to take apart.  I think there are articles and probably You-tube videos online that explain it.  I even wrote instructions a while back and have probably posted them on this site but not sure where, so I will post them again here.  Note that these instructions are for a Colt-style percussion pistol, but as the last paragraph states, it is the same for the SAA guns.  Good luck.

On a Colt cap and ball pistol, first loosen or remove the wedge (right to left unless it is a Walker). It doesn't need to come all the way out the left side (you may have to remove the wedge screw for the wedge to come completely free), just make sure it is hanging loose on the left side so it is no longer holding the barrel to the cylinder pin (also called the arbor).

If the gun is an Uberti Richards-Mason or Type II Richards conversion, or a '71-72 Opentop, the wedge screw has a flat on one side of the screw head.  Turn the screw counterclockwise until the flat is facing downward towards the wedge, then the wedge can be removed from the gun.

Pull the barrel forward away from the frame. If it is really hard to remove (be sure the wedge is removed), you can help it by using the rammer to push against the cylinder in between the chamber holes.

If the gun is an Opentop or Conversion without a rammer and the barrel is hard to remove (be sure you removed the wedge!), you can take a wooden dowel that is small enough to fit inside the bore and long enough to stick out of the muzzle an inch or two when inserted all the way into the barrel and cylinder so the end of it is against the recoil shield.  Then while gripping the barrel at the muzzle with one hand, use a plastic or wooden mallet of some sort to tap against the protruding end of the dowel, and this will push the frame away from the barrel.  Be sure the back end of the gun (frame) is in your lap or over a padded spot so it doesn't fall against anything hard or rough when it comes loose from the barrel.

Put the pistol on half-cock, which will drop the bolt head into the frame and unlock the cylinder. Now you can pull the cylinder forward off of the cylinder pin without leaving a scratch from the bolt.

Pull the hammer back to full cock and then let it back forward.  On some guns, when the cylinder has been removed the hand will stick forward in its frame slot enough to bind against the frame and prevent you from being able to pull the hammer to full cock.  In this case, push the hand back into the frame with a screwdriver tip, or a pencil, or anything else, while you pull the hammer back to full cock.

Remove the backstrap by removing the two screws at the top of the backstrap, on either side of the hammer, plus the screw in the butt of the grip. When you pull the backstrap away from the gun, the one-piece grip will come off with it.

Remove the triggerguard by first loosening the large screw that holds the mainspring in place, which will take tension off the spring, and then removing the three screws in the bottom that attach the triggerguard to the frame.

Keep track of where the gripframe screws go. The two at the top of the backstrap and the two at the rear of the triggerguard are all the same, but the one at the front of the triggerguard will be different (smaller head) and the one in the butt of the gripframe may or may not also be different.

After removing the triggerguard you will see the action parts inside the frame. There is one screw inside, which holds the two-pronged trigger-bolt spring in place. Before removing this screw and the spring, note how the long leg of the spring pushes against a ledge on the trigger. When you reassamble the gun, be sure the end of the spring is against this ledge the same way. It is fairly easy for the end of the spring to get underneath the ledge instead of on top of it (when the frame is viewed upside down).

Remove the screw from the side of the frame that holds the trigger in place and remove the trigger.

Remove the screw from the side of the frame that holds the bolt (cylinder lock) in place and remove the bolt. You might have to slide a small screwdriver underneath the forward end of the bolt and pry it away from the frame in order to get a grip on it to remove it (the legs of the bolt are still squeezed between the hammer and the frame).

Remove the screw from the side of the frame that holds the hammer in place. The hammer can then be pulled downward out of the frame, and the hand will come out with it.

Reassemble in reverse order. The hand must be attached to the hammer, and it can be a little tricky to get it started up into the hand channel. You might need to compress the small leaf spring on the back of the hand to get the hand to fit into its channel in the frame.

Installing the bolt can also be made easier by pushing the legs of the bolt into place with the hammer pulled back, then hold them in place as you let the hammer back forward.

When installing the backstrap and grip, it is usually best to alternate between the two top screws and the one in the butt, screwing each in a little at a time.

Hope that helps.

p.s. with the exception of pulling off the barrel, the above steps would be the same for an SAA, except the modern reproductions mostly have a coil handspring and plunger and setscrew in the frame instead of the leaf spring on the hand, and these parts must be removed before the hammer and hand are pulled out of the frame or they might fall out into the hand channel and be lost.  And some of the Pietta SAA clones do not have a setscrew behind the coil hand spring and plunger, so when you take off the backstrap, the coil hand spring and plunger can fall out so be careful.

[SilverDollar]

Abilene,

Thanks for your post.  I was suspicious of taking out the screws while assembled and maintaining the alignment, and you have confirmed my suspicions.  Washers do exist, Colt sells them, and they get $5 each just for the Trigger washers!  You have to buy the other 7 together in a bag.

I have ordered Loctite 222 as a last measure, but don't like "artificial" or "non-mechanical" solutions to things, i.e. how much Loctite did they use in 1850 to keep their screws from falling out after 5 shots?

I have noticed that the diagrams that come standard with the pistols don't show the plunger and spring, but rather a different mechanism entirely.  They need to update their diagrams, EMF, that is.

I have not seen much online about *assembly* of SAA Colt or Colt clones, but an animation and some descriptions of *disassembly*. 

We all know that taking a car engine apart isn't the nasty part, it is putting it back together, especially where springs and tensions and alignments all come into play, even vices and more.  I don't want to risk having a brand new non-functional revolver that I can't figure out how to get back in good working order, especially without a detailed animation or step by step photos and explanation.

If you have any pointers to good sources of info that would give me the ability to confidently install these last three washers and worry less about them dropping out in the dirt, I am open to seeing them.

Thanks.

[Abilene]

Well, the worst that can happen if you take it apart and can't put it back together is that you will have to ask for assistance.  Like I said, they are really pretty simple.  

However, since you stated that Colt washers exist for the trigger, bolt, and hammer springs, here is a method of installing them that just came to mind (i.e. - untested!).  As you remove each screw, push a similar sized slave pin (like a punch or the shank of a drill bit) into the hole from the right side of the frame.  After unscrewing the threaded portion of the screw (which is on the left side of the frame - the threads are just past the head of each screw), push the screw out right to left with your slave pin.  This way you know the slave pin is inside the holes of the trigger, bolt, or hammer.  When you reinstall the screw with washer installed, do it the same way, pushing the slave pin back out to the right.  What is the worst that can happen?  Well, you might have to take off the grip frame and "fix" it.  If you try this approach, I would remove the main spring and the trigger bolt spring first so they are not putting pressure on the parts and trying to "move" them.  Actually, if you change out those screws with the trigger guard removed (remove the backstrap first) you can see exactly where they are going and guide them as necessary.  Taking the backstrap and triggerguard off of the gun will not cause any problems and no parts will fall out (well, since it is a Pietta, there may not be a setscrew for the hand spring and plunger, so those could fall out, but if you know that just let them fall out and put them back into their hole before putting the backstrap back on).

[SilverDollar]

Abilene,

Yes, I mentioned a similar idea in my OP, but became nervous about actually executing it in real time with something I have never seen the inside of. 

Getting help on it is problematic until I spend more time with the local SASS group and get to know who knows what and is willing to walk me through it without a problem.

If you have the ability to test our work-around and get yourself back to the beginning, I surely would like to know, since I can´t really test it on my own, it is just too risky until I either have a goofed gun to play with, or find someone that can show me on one of their guns that they know what they are doing before I set off to sea.

[Pettifogger]

Take a look at the same question you posted in the gun smithing section.

"I have ordered Loctite 222 as a last measure, but don't like "artificial" or "non-mechanical" solutions to things, i.e. how much Loctite did they use in 1850 to keep their screws from falling out after 5 shots?"

Like most guns then and now, they were carried a lot and shot very little.  Also, have you ever seen a cased set?  They all have screwdrivers as part of the set.  Guess what that is for.  You would be surprised what people did in the 1850s.  Ever heard of varnish?  This is an EASY fix.  Quit obsessing over it.  Loctite 222 (Purple) is perfect for what you need to do.

[Blair]

Pettyfogger,

Double + for what you are saying.

SilverDollar,

Suggestion, you need to learn how to  take your revolver/firearms apart. If for no other reason than to give them a good cleaning.
My best,
Blair

[St. George]

Both 'Gun Digest' and the 'NRA' have published books on disassembly/reassembly - get them from your Public Library and read them - there are pictures, as well.

Or - buy a copy of Dave Chicoine's 'Gunsmithing the Guns of the Old West', if you can find one - it's worth it.

Then - get a set of 'good' screwdrivers from Brownell's.

This isn't rocket science.

By the way, there were no washers on early Colts - none at all - those came in later production, and most guys get rid of them after the first detail-stripping because they're not required.

Scouts Out!

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Getting help on it is problematic until I spend more time with the local SASS group and get to know who knows what and is willing to walk me through it without a problem.

When I was sixteen I bought an old Harley Davidson - the guy who sold it too me said "Son if your going to ride it, you better learn to fix it.

When I was seventeen I bought my first single action army and was told "If your going to shoot it, you better learn to fix it".

As far as your problem, it is no problem.  The next time you go to your local SASS group ask anyone "Who would be the best to show me how to disassemble, clean and reassemble my guns?  In 2 minutes you will have a couple of offers.

If your going to shoot em, learn to fix em.

[Pettifogger]

When I was sixteen I bought an old Harley Davidson - the guy who sold it too me said "Son if your going to ride it, you better learn to fix it.

When I was seventeen I bought my first single action army and was told "If your going to shoot it, you better learn to fix it".

As far as your problem, it is no problem.  The next time you go to your local SASS group ask anyone "Who would be the best to show me how to disassemble, clean and reassemble my guns?  In 2 minutes you will have a couple of offers.

If your going to shoot em, learn to fix em.

Add to that old British sports cars and motorcycles.  If you couldn't fix them, you were going to do a lot of walking.