Loading Data for the 50/95WCF

[ndnchf]

I agree. My Uberti slugs at .5137". Those are way undersize.

[DrummerBoy]

Gentlemen,
THANKS!!! Sorry for the late response, I had a little hospital visit on Monday and yesterday I was in lalaland. That data on the Steinel ammo is much appreciated! I have slugged my Presidio and even with my toy calipers I'm getting more than .509....18 grains, no wonder there's no recoil..it's a wonder I'm getting round holes...I think I'm gonna have to get one of those Caldwell sleds and get serious about determining my accuracy...BTW my die set is RCBS 21304.
Thanks Very Much Again!
DB

[King Medallion]

18 grains?? I'm lost now.

[DrummerBoy]

King,
SiringoMN was kind enough to post the makeup of those Steinel cartridges for Cimarron in 50-95...Montana Bullet projos at .509 over 18 grains of Trail Boss was how I was reading his information. Like him I think that's a good way to get headstamped brass in 50-95.....it's pricey but you can shoot it 
Only problem is the undersized bullets might make for large patterns instead of tight groups.....

[ndnchf]

If a .509"bullet is way undersize for your rifle, consider breaking down those cartridges and reloading with a proper size bullet.  A way undersize bullet will just be a waste of powder, primers and lead.  Lead is cheap, powder and primers are not.   

[King Medallion]

OK, I got it, Duh, was posted on the last page. Just woke up. I think also that you aught to pull those undersized bullets and replace with more appropriate size slugs. Any Idea what the powder is? If it's Black, make sure your new bullets have black powder lube, or you'll just be practicing foul language unnecessarily. If you don't know what it is for sure, probably best to dump it in mamma's petunia bed. If you need some bullets to try, I can spare you a few that are SPG lubed. ndnchf did that for me once, I will do that for you if you need them.

[DrummerBoy]

That's awfully darn generous of you,King! And NDN, you're painfully correct, especially with regard to primers...
What I must do is get more equipment. Much as I'd like to I don't have the tools or experience to pull bullets, but I'm sure willing to learn.
(At the risk of hate mail, my toy calipers are giving me a RCH over 16/32 for my slug or .515625 - ish maybe ...)

[Black River Smith]

Go to Harbor Freight and buy anyone of these Dial Calipers.  They will be better than what it sounds like you have been working with.

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-dial-caliper-63730.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-fractional-dial-caliper-63655.html?_br_psugg_q=dial+caliper

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-dial-caliper-57445.html

Now for pulling bullets there are several ways.  The two easiest and cheapest are -- 1. If you have a reloading press.  the cheapest way is go to Harbor Freight and buy an electrical wire stripper like this --  https://www.harborfreight.com/8-in-four-way-wire-crimperstripper-tool-63307.html ---   https://www.harborfreight.com/electrical-crimper-and-stripper-57595.html

With no die in the press put your bullet in the shell holder and raise it to the top of the stroke.  The lead bullet should rise above the threads and to the top of the press.  Then take the 'cheap wire stripper', spread them apart so that the teeth of the bottom section of the handles, that section that would strip different diameter wires are lined up around the lead bullet and the tool lays flat on the top of press.  Squeeze the teeth into the lead (Only) but not real hard.  Now while holding the handles in one hand use the other to slowly raise the press handle which will pull the casing from the lead bullet.  Go real slow since they are loaded with powder.  Also, do not touch the press die threads or you may damage them.

If your press stroke will not get the lead above the top of the press then go to this approach.


2. Buy an impact hammer from Amazon -- https://www.amazon.com/Impact-Bullet-Different-Expandable-Collets/dp/B07WDNH81Q/ref=sr_1_3?crid=19XQD7MD9PUR9&keywords=franklin+friction+bullet+puller&qid=1679522118&sprefix=frankland+friction+bullet+puller%2Caps%2C247&sr=8-3

PS -- I had to use method #1 when method #2 would not remove the bullets.

[DrummerBoy]

Howdy Black River Smith,
Thanks for the detailed lesson! I'm off to cabelas!!!

[SiringoMN]

Quality Cartridge makes the brass for the aforementioned cartridges.  $90.00 (rounded) for 20 and as usual it is back ordered.  Of course until they get enough orders and who knows how many that is!

Because I have an original spec Winchester chamber, I still had to ream the inside of the necks to accommodate the bullet to chamber fit.  My barrel is 0.512"  The largest bullet I can use is 0.5125".  That's OK.  It works.

[Roosterman]

I'll ramble on with my experience for what it's worth. My bore slugs at .513. I have shot .512's and .513's, both were accurate, but I have to do more shooting to see just how accurate those bullet sizes are. I load with 2ff black powder, loaded through a 30" drop tube allowing for probably 1/10" compression. I use 20 to 1 lead.  Using real BP and soft alloy your bullet is going to punch up and fill the grooves.
Also,  I'm loading for two old marlins in .40 caliber. Both of the barrels measure .410 grooves, one gun will only except a .406 bullet and the other will only take a .408. I thought I was screwed.    BUT, with soft alloy bullets and using a full load of 2ff black powder they both shoot very accurately. It's the combo of BP and soft alloy that makes it work. I'm think of casting for all of my guns with 30 to 1 in the future to see how it works. Even softer may be even better.
And that's all I got to say about that.

[DrummerBoy]

Thanks to everyone for pitching in! I hope I haven't exhausted everyone's patience, because I wanna pick at this scab again. King I think you have one of these Presidios...I have slugged my Presidio again, and it seems to be really big, as in 0.5187...I slugged it by using a heavily padded hammer to push a 54 cal hornady ball into the bore. Once it was started I switched to a wooden dowel to ease it down the bore till it free fell onto a bunch of towel lint in the carrier.  Payday the 22 I swear I'm going to harbor freight for decent calipers BUT what I have closes at 16.6 over 32.....it's not gonna get any smaller unless I dig it into the slug. The approximation is  0.51875...what I'm hoping for is for King or other Presidio shooters to tell me what they got...PROMISE I'll get decent calipers on the 22nd!
Best
DeeBee

[King Medallion]

Mine is .513. I doubt yours is .518, Uberti barrels are purty good barrels, but I spose it's possible.

[Roosterman]

Shoot black powder and 20 to 1 or 30 to 1. The bullet will punch right up into the grooves.

[DrummerBoy]

Drummer Boy here, pounding away..
On my endless quest for more knowledge I looked at the CIP tables just now to see how that organization rates the 50-95 and the 45-70, for obvious reasons..
50-95 Win
Pmax is 2100 bar or 30,457.9 psi
Proofs at 2625 bar
Energy is 5000 Joule or 3687.8 ft lbs

45-70 govt
Pmax is 2200 bar or 31,908.3 psi
Proofs at 2750 bar
Energy is 3414 Joule or 2518 ft lb

It's my understanding that Uberti has to meet or exceed these standards at their proof house for their firearms

I have some questions, like what kind of projectile, if any, was used...I probably overlooked that, among other important stuff..
But unless I err egregiously the data shows me how much stronger the 86 action might be...
NOT MUCH

[DrummerBoy]

One more sort of critical "face saving" question for anyone who cares to answer:
When I close the action on my 45-60 and my 50-95 I can still see the rim of the brass cartridge......there appears to be a flush fit of bolt face to rim to barrel base....I've never really looked at any other Winchester lever models..is there no recess to shroud the cartridge rim on the others?
I'm guessing that any slight misalignment of the bolt might expose the case base to that CIP PSI I wuz wondering about.....
Sincerely,
DeeBee
(good ol BLR)

[SiringoMN]

all of the toggle link actions are made that way.  No worry. 

[SiringoMN]

Thanks to everyone for pitching in! I hope I haven't exhausted everyone's patience, because I wanna pick at this scab again. King I think you have one of these Presidios...I have slugged my Presidio again, and it seems to be really big, as in 0.5187...I slugged it by using a heavily padded hammer to push a 54 cal hornady ball into the bore. Once it was started I switched to a wooden dowel to ease it down the bore till it free fell onto a bunch of towel lint in the carrier.  Payday the 22 I swear I'm going to harbor freight for decent calipers BUT what I have closes at 16.6 over 32.....it's not gonna get any smaller unless I dig it into the slug. The approximation is  0.51875...what I'm hoping for is for King or other Presidio shooters to tell me what they got...PROMISE I'll get decent calipers on the 22nd!
Best
DeeBee

In the beginning of my trials and tribulations with my uberti, my bore diameter ended up at 0.516/7".  Care had to be taken getting the measurements because mine had an odd number of lands and grooves.  It was necessary to slowly turn the bullet in the calipers to get an accurate reading.  I ended up using a bullet for Accurate Molds that gave me the proper diameter that was needed.  I believe my weight was 335 grains.  Also, my dies from Ch4D would size the neck while seating the bullet.  The necks had a diameter of 0.532".  So depending on the brass thickness of the neck, a 0.516 bullet would be sized down to a much smaller diameter.  Hence accuracy sucked big time.

[DrummerBoy]

Siringo
I really appreciate the info, voice of experience, and moral support! I guess if I just wanted to blast away I'd get one of those fabulous BigHorn rifles in .500 S&W....but....I'm just totally fascinated by the pre Browning approach to a repeating action...I don't really think I'll ever need any more power than the 50-95 can deliver, I just want it to be all it can be...same goes for all those 1876 calibers

[Roosterman]

Siringo
I really appreciate the info, voice of experience, and moral support! I guess if I just wanted to blast away I'd get one of those fabulous BigHorn rifles in .500 S&W....but....I'm just totally fascinated by the pre Browning approach to a repeating action...I don't really think I'll ever need any more power than the 50-95 can deliver, I just want it to be all it can be...same goes for all those 1876 calibers

I load all of the 76 cartridges with black and get the giggles every time I pull the trigger. More fun than a guy ought to have. Black powder gives me all the power I need.