Loading Data for the 45/75

[greyhawk]

Ha Ha! The smoke is plain old black powder smoke. "I don't always shoot powder coated bullets, but when I do I shoot red ones." They do kind of match the "Uberti red" stock though.

hmmmmph ! me an Dusty is seriously dissapointed about the lack of purple smoke !

Q - thats a fine lookin tang sight in yr picture - how far out have you shot with it and how did that Uberti do! I am seriously considering butchering . altering another LEE mold - take off the base band and one lube groove turns the 459-500-3R into a pointy nose two groove boolit right around 385 grains - single loaded of course ! I just have not shot my 76 past 100yards - happy to blame the operator for any misalignment of boolits at that distance - do you reckon 500yards is do able        

[greyhawk]

hmmmmph ! me an Dusty is seriously dissapointed about the lack of purple smoke !

Q - thats a fine lookin tang sight in yr picture - how far out have you shot with it and how did that Uberti do! I am seriously considering butchering . altering another LEE mold - take off the base band and one lube groove turns the 459-500-3R into a pointy nose two groove boolit right around 385 grains - single loaded of course ! I just have not shot my 76 past 100yards - happy to blame the operator for any misalignment of boolits at that distance - do you reckon 500yards is do able        

Just couldnt help it could I ? heres a pic of whatI had in mind  - it chambers just off the lands - bit of a trick gettin it back out after ya close the bolt - 65 grains of black and a milk carton wad ??

Forgot the picture yesterday

[Pinback]

Surprisingly enough my next experimental 45-75 loading will be a paper patched bullet cast from a T. Ballard adjustable mold. Depending on the Uberti's throat length I want maximize the bullet length and only seat the bullet .080 into the case. It will be interesting to see the maximum bullet weight I can use. The T. Ballard mold at maximum length yields a 535gr. bullet. That one is a 1000 yard round in a 45-90. Yes, I believe accuracy at 500 yards is easily obtainable using the MVA Soule sight. I'm basing this speculation on the fact that my '76 groups better than my Sharps 1874 45-90 right now at 100 yards with my current loads. Note: I won't be trying any shooting at 1000 yards, I'm old and that's too much walking.
     

[dusty texian]

You fellow's are getting me wound up , in the process of finishing up the wood on the Extra Heavy barrel 45/75 rebuild . Have a set of Winchester long range sights for it , and plan on testing what the old 45/75 can do past the 200yd. line . Interesting bullet you are thinking on with the modified mould  Greyhawk . Pinback looking forward to hearing how the PP bullets work in the 45/75. I have some 350 gr. slicks that will patch up to bore size on my 45/75 , may give them a try in the new bore . Fine sight you have there .,,,,DT

[greyhawk]

You fellow's are getting me wound up , in the process of finishing up the wood on the Extra Heavy barrel 45/75 rebuild . Have a set of Winchester long range sights for it , and plan on testing what the old 45/75 can do past the 200yd. line . Interesting bullet you are thinking on with the modified mould  Greyhawk . Pinback looking forward to hearing how the PP bullets work in the 45/75. I have some 350 gr. slicks that will patch up to bore size on my 45/75 , may give them a try in the new bore . Fine sight you have there .,,,,DT

Dusty --Pinback
Tossing more ideas around here
This round is another option - my modified LEE (was 405 HB - now 405 Flatpoint - no hollow base) My rifle already seems to like this boolit - was at the reloading bench and put this one together as a what if ? - 70 grains of FFF , milk carton wad the boolit is seated a quarter inch in the case (my cases are a tad short = 1.790) this is a fired case not resized - I can push it in the chamber with my thumb - just feel it touch the lands - at the last ----- Pinback I never thought this would go in !!! that Uberti chamber is some roomy up front I think. Dusty I am looking at this one seriously as it has three lube grooves compared to two on the pointy boolit I was thinking about yesterday - will give away a bit of drop at 500yards but proly gonna shoot as flat as my 45/70 I think I go ahead and shoot five of each of these - see what happens.  Only have a marbles tang sight and the original front on this rifle so that may be the limitation (hope so! can soon find something better)
Dusty - do you see any pressure problems with a 400grain boolit on the lands and 70 grains of FFF behind it ?      

ps Pinback - base of case to front of driving band (lands contact) 2.150"

[dusty texian]

Greyhawk , no doubt the 400 gr. and on the lands will increase pressure , my guess is ,  if your rifle is in good condition , should be no problem. I would not hesitate to shoot that load in my original rifles. With this new barreled 76 , I hope to find an accurate load that  will perform out beyond 200 yd. The problem I have encountered with setting the bullet out enough to touch or be very close to the lands , is removing a live round . I'm sure you have discovered this already . Hope to begin testing the re- barreled 45/75 soon .,,,DT

[greyhawk]

Greyhawk , no doubt the 400 gr. and on the lands will increase pressure , my guess is ,  if your rifle is in good condition , should be no problem. I would not hesitate to shoot that load in my original rifles. With this new barreled 76 , I hope to find an accurate load that  will perform out beyond 200 yd. The problem I have encountered with setting the bullet out enough to touch or be very close to the lands , is removing a live round . I'm sure you have discovered this already . Hope to begin testing the re- barreled 45/75 soon .,,,DT

Yep ! still half the boolit in the chamber when shes open - I made a little brass chisel tihingy so I can kinda lift the extractor over the rim - dont like doin it though - otherwise - once you chamber one of those long ones ya kinda committed to pullin the trigger. Rifle is a new Uberti so should be no problems with pressure. Gonna shoot in the morning if the wind is down - 200yards I think - want to be sure there no tumbles happening - sights are a bit dodgy really but can deal with that if needed. If groups are ok will continue the trial    . 

[King Medallion]

Greyhawk, I'd like to request video for this experiment.

Next gun show I go to I'm going to be looking for some Holy Black. Just got some unlubed 330 FN from Penn Bullets. I have a Lyman lubing/sizing press I bought many years ago for SPGing 44-40 bullets, haven't used it in years. Got to get a .459 lubeing die for it.

[greyhawk]

Greyhawk, I'd like to request video for this experiment.

Next gun show I go to I'm going to be looking for some Holy Black. Just got some unlubed 330 FN from Penn Bullets. I have a Lyman lubing/sizing press I bought many years ago for SPGing 44-40 bullets, haven't used it in years. Got to get a .459 lubeing die for it.

ok guys - nothing to write home about here - only shot this at 100yards
excuses first 1) was a bit slow getting to this and a bit of tricky crosswind came up - down ----
2) I struggle these days with vertical sight alignment - memory dont help - I walked up to the target between pairs of shots - can see that on the left hand target

I shot on each target alternately - pointy boolit on the left one and flatnose on the right one
Load for both was 69 grains of homebrew powder, droptubed, milk carton wad, compression die, boolit seated to depth but not crimped - pics of loaded rounds are above in previous posts - pointy boolit is a whisker off the lands - flatnose is touching .
flatnose boolit target group is unimpressive 4 shots two inches deep and four or better side to side with the fifth up another three inches - can pretty much do that with that boolit loaded normally - did I weigh check those boolits - no ---- 407 grains but the handful I checked now had a few 5 to 6 grains lighter .
Pointy boolit target has posibilities I think - doesnt measure any better but I bet with a tunnel front sight and a circle insert I could put those two groups on top of each other and the side to side is half wind half my eyes - I think that needs further attention. Nothing went sideways ! so thats a positive

As far as the mechanicals go - no big deal loading - I cock the hammer properly before I open the bolt cuz you short stroking it a little to load - do not want the hammer following the bolt home as ya close it - before going out to shoot I checked the ammo by chambering - just leave the lifter down - bolt open - put em in by hand - push it home wid yr thumb - use a ramrod down the tube to push it back out - gently - dont wanna push the rim under the extractor else ya gotta extricate that - once ya close the bolt - shoot it!! The load and fire part was easier than I thought would be. I need to get a decent tunnel front sight with a set of inserts before I can figure this out any further.   pics below   
   

[dusty texian]

Good report Greyhawk , with your loading ability and a target style sight , I would bet you tighten that group a bunch . Do you fellows lighten your trigger pull. On a couple of my 76 rifles I install  a very light trigger return spring and tune the mainspring as light as possible . Makes trigger control much better . May not make much difference , but one thing I  do when shooting long range or ( best  accuracy)  may be a better term . When the rifle is in battery and just before I get on the trigger I slide the firing pin forward against the primer with my thumb about 3/16" , in other words take the slack out of the firing pin system . I also pay close attention to the firing pin retractor   fit  and firing pin & bolt fit .  This may be just a mental thing with me but its part of my mental checks before the shot  , I feel it helps . My Extra Heavy 76 is in the white and will be tested before taking back down for metal finish . The wood has its first few coats of linseed oil and Winchester red stain mix. A side note making the fore arm for the Extra Heavy barrel 76 was one of the hardest wood working jobs I have undertaken , I spent hrs. on it  That thing is thin , it's not a wonder the old one was so damaged , the but stock was old hat . Look forward to testing and contributing my results with this one .,,,,,DT

[greyhawk]

Good report Greyhawk , with your loading ability and a target style sight , I would bet you tighten that group a bunch . Do you fellows lighten your trigger pull. On a couple of my 76 rifles I install  a very light trigger return spring and tune the mainspring as light as possible . Makes trigger control much better . May not make much difference , but one thing I  do when shooting long range or ( best  accuracy)  may be a better term . When the rifle is in battery and just before I get on the trigger I slide the firing pin forward against the primer with my thumb about 3/16" , in other words take the slack out of the firing pin system . I also pay close attention to the firing pin retractor   fit  and firing pin & bolt fit .  This may be just a mental thing with me but its part of my mental checks before the shot  , I feel it helps . My Extra Heavy 76 is in the white and will be tested before taking back down for metal finish . The wood has its first few coats of linseed oil and Winchester red stain mix. A side note making the fore arm for the Extra Heavy barrel 76 was one of the hardest wood working jobs I have undertaken , I spent hrs. on it  That thing is thin , it's not a wonder the old one was so damaged , the but stock was old hat . Look forward to testing and contributing my results with this one .,,,,,DT

Dusty
Thanks for the tips - yeah I lightened the trigger off - took the lever safety latch/ trigger spring out entirely - and slacked off the mainspring tension screw underneath - had it nice too but then the mainspring worked its way out of the retaining notch at the back - I have worked on that but in the meantime put a bit more tension on the spring and trigger pull was a bit heavy for my liking yesterday. My 76 is a Uberti repro and firing pin is some kind of lawyer inspired rebounding affair so no slack there at all before the hammer drops -
How do you make those forends - that is a PITA by hand - have made a couple for 92's - yup one for a heavy barrel - wood is about a sixteenth alongside the barrel - my problem has always been getting the hole for the magazine tube done - I tried different ways of boring this - always ended up with it tight one end - sloppy the other end -
I finally got the gear for that - you have a mill - I ordered a couple of tungsten carbide ball cutters off Ebay and also a 45 degree cutter - have only had a practice run so far - run a straight mill cutter down first - go about half depth of the magazine tube - use a mill cutter the width of the barrel flat - then the ballcutter for the magazine tube - complete the hole for the tube - make sure the tube fits ok while you are setup - then finish the barrel recess using the 45 degree cutter - need to fiddle the setup so you are cutting the same taper as on the barrel - but I would cut it straigtht (parrallel) first then just ease the taper in.
The cutters didnt cost much at all - they just router bits and you would get them locally (Menards or Wherever ) but spendy that way - Ebay /China is cheap for stuff like this .   

[dusty texian]

Greyhawk, I'd like to request video for this experiment.

Next gun show I go to I'm going to be looking for some Holy Black. Just got some unlubed 330 FN from Penn Bullets. I have a Lyman lubing/sizing press I bought many years ago for SPGing 44-40 bullets, haven't used it in years. Got to get a .459 lubeing die for it.

Glad your going to give BP. a try in your 76  KM . Half the fun is all the shooting  you get to do working up a load that shoots well . Good Luck with your quest .,,,,DT

[dusty texian]

ok guys - nothing to write home about here - only shot this at 100yards
excuses first 1) was a bit slow getting to this and a bit of tricky crosswind came up - down ----
2) I struggle these days with vertical sight alignment - memory dont help - I walked up to the target between pairs of shots - can see that on the left hand target

I shot on each target alternately - pointy boolit on the left one and flatnose on the right one
Load for both was 69 grains of homebrew powder, droptubed, milk carton wad, compression die, boolit seated to depth but not crimped - pics of loaded rounds are above in previous posts - pointy boolit is a whisker off the lands - flatnose is touching .
flatnose boolit target group is unimpressive 4 shots two inches deep and four or better side to side with the fifth up another three inches - can pretty much do that with that boolit loaded normally - did I weigh check those boolits - no ---- 407 grains but the handful I checked now had a few 5 to 6 grains lighter .                                                                                                                                                                                                       Have you tried any more test loads GreyHawk ? If I read your post right , the bullet close to the lands was no more accurate than a Std, OAL . cartridge ? ,,,,DT
Pointy boolit target has posibilities I think - doesnt measure any better but I bet with a tunnel front sight and a circle insert I could put those two groups on top of each other and the side to side is half wind half my eyes - I think that needs further attention. Nothing went sideways ! so thats a positive

As far as the mechanicals go - no big deal loading - I cock the hammer properly before I open the bolt cuz you short stroking it a little to load - do not want the hammer following the bolt home as ya close it - before going out to shoot I checked the ammo by chambering - just leave the lifter down - bolt open - put em in by hand - push it home wid yr thumb - use a ramrod down the tube to push it back out - gently - dont wanna push the rim under the extractor else ya gotta extricate that - once ya close the bolt - shoot it!! The load and fire part was easier than I thought would be. I need to get a decent tunnel front sight with a set of inserts before I can figure this out any further.   pics below   
   

[dusty texian]

Somehow I got my post right in the middle of yours .,,,,DT

[greyhawk]

Somehow I got my post right in the middle of yours .,,,,DT

Hey Dusty =that was a neat trick - the kind of thing I do - fat thumbs they call it - have a friend calls me on his cell phone regular and halfway through I lose him - I blamed the phone company for the dropouts - he says no mate I switch it off with me ear .

Anyway - the 76 - I have a Lyman front sight on the way - should be here next week - I think I will hold off until I get that - I was kind of reading between the lines on my shooting tother day - I have an ongoing problem nowadays with vertical sight alignment - my serious open sight rifles have flat top front sights an eigth inch wider or better and big square backsight notches to suit - the front on the 76 is just the Uberti issue (winchester copy) and I dont see it well enough to get proper vertical to really try it out .
Neither group was anything special but the pointy nose boolit had two lines of shots that just looked promising so I think i will go ahead with that for a start . Other target was the 405 grain LEE modified flatpoint (one of two variations that I normally shoot) on a good day I can get a two inch group at 50 yards with that loaded normally and thats about what we got on the hundred yard test - those were actually touching the lands so if I try that again I will seat them a little deeper (just off).
Analysing targets I always am encouraged by pairs of holes -- I reckon thats when you had alignment spot on - that says to me this barrel can shoot - you just cant see good enough or hold consistently enough to get it out.
So -- some time loading and another try next week after that front sight turns up - when I fit that I will also take the buttstock off and do a bit more work on the trigger / mainspring to lighten that a bit more.     
Looking forward to your report too.
cheers
Greyhawk

[dusty texian]

Agree 100% about seeing two shots in one hole , it tells me that is where the load is printing and that the load  can be very accurate if I do my part , and my loading is consistent . Or I just missed in the same place twice , possible but not likley .  For this new barrel , I cast a new batch from a proven old mould @ 16/1 , they came out just a tad over .458 " and 352 gr.  I broke out a new batch of Jamison 50 cases trimmed them to 1.89" my lube wax/tallow mix will use Winchester primers , and start with about 70/71 gr. 2ff Swiss and 2ff Schuetzen , and some 3ff Goex . Next wk . I'll be at my range and can set up my reloading stuff at the bench , load test different loads this way I can eliminate loads that do not look promising  , and only test further the ones that look good . Hope to get a good tight group  load at the 100 yd.bank and then start moving out farther . Will  post results ASAP. ,,,,,DT

[dusty texian]

With our talk of shooting for accuracy and distance , this add from I think 1878 ? is a Long Range load  45/90/450 PP cartridge designed for the 1876 Winchester . Would be a problem removing one if not fired after being chambered . The cartridge is rare to say the least , I know of one collector that has one or two . Thought Y'all may like this . Pardon the bad pic. ,,,DT

[greyhawk]

With our talk of shooting for accuracy and distance , this add from I think 1878 ? is a Long Range load  45/90/450 PP cartridge designed for the 1876 Winchester . Would be a problem removing one if not fired after being chambered . The cartridge is rare to say the least , I know of one collector that has one or two . Thought Y'all may like this . Pardon the bad pic. ,,,DT

Dusty
- thanks for posting the pic of the long range load - gurus been tellin us for a hundred years+ the 76 was not strong enough to stand heavy loads - your picture kinda ruins all that! .... I dunno how they got 90 grains of powder in that case tho.

Burnt me some powder this morning in the 45/75 - had to fit the front sight I got yesterday - and did a little better with it I think - trigger is still way too heavy - all shot at 100yards still (my marbles sight is gonna run outa threads at about 200 I  think)  
So shooting my homemade powder here - loads were put together carefully - powder weighed , drop tubed, boolits weighed .
1) 390 grain Pointy boolit + 69 grains + juice box wad - one grease groove out of the case just off the lands
2) 405 grain FP boolit + 62 grains + wad - 2 grease grooves out of the case almost touching the lands
3) 405 grain FP + 65 grains + wad - 2 grease grooves out of the case almost touching the lands
4) Normal hunting load - 405 grain boolit 60 grains powder NO WAD - loaded in the case for magazine feed
The pointy boolit - I am lathe turning the base off of a 459-500-3R lee
If it tests enough better will go ahead and wreck a mold
Next up I need to test the normal load with an overpowder wad so I can yay or nay that one for target
No 1) ---- I shot one foul shot then fiddled round a bit getting organised - then let the four shots go - one two three up the target is typical for a cold magazine rifle - I followed straight on with the next series of five 2) for a decent group (for me!) then had a break while I changed targets etc - sure enough that third target has the same one two three up as she warmed up. This gonna take some time.
Using 348 brass here - with a 458 boolit I have about ZERO neck clearance in the chamber - have never neck reamed cases but may have to look at that ?      
ps no clean between shots here - one long slow with the blow tube - 21 shots fired
Extreme on the no 2 was 2&1/4 inches - two nice pairs on that one !
 
Any suggestions to advance the cause will be taken seriously  

[greyhawk]

Dusty and all
Thought you might enjoy this
I fired 21 this morning with just the blow tube
Cleaned betsy this afternoon
I used about a cup and half of cold water with a sniff of detergent in it - hard to believe how easy this has got - I use a drink bottle with a plastic tube -
1)pour a little water down from the breech end
2) three or four strokes with a wet patch
3) little more water
4) three or four strokes with a clean damp patch
5) little more water
6) dry patch a couple of swipes
The picture below is of these three patches in sequence
Then a couple more dry patches and an oily patch to preserve it - the whole thing takes just a couple of minutes - I leave the gear setup in my machine shed on a trolley and it includes a cleaning cradle so the gun can rest upside down for the patching. Have a look at those patches though - amazing what can happen with cleanburning black powder and sufficient lube. 

Also had a short casting session - 50 from the newer LEE 459-500-3R - these weighed out really good -- 36 right on the money at 490 grains , 5 at +1 , 8 at -1, 1 at - 2 pretty darn good for a twenty five dollar mold!!!

[dusty texian]

Very good report ,  Greyhawk that's some real good shooting . It appears the rifle likes the 405 bullet . Are you going to continue testing all loads , or focus on one ? What load did you think was best ? Your powder is working very good / cant get better than shooting your own powder . Sure looks like it burns clean .  ,,,,,DT