Loading Data for the 45/75

[levers]

Thanks Larry01.  Do you have any issues getting that .458 bullet in the case?  Any issues with tight chambering?

[larryo1]

levers:
Nope.  Can't say that I have. I just bell the cases a wee bit and then go ahead and seat the bullet.  I have even had some luck with Hornady 350 grain jacketed soft points.  They shoot good but are pretty spendy when compared to lead bullets.  Don't know if this helps but it is about all that I can say.

[levers]

Larry01 I assume you are shooting an original Win. 1876?  I load a lot of different old Win. calibers but am new to the 45/75.  Must just be the chamber of my gun is tighter than yours.  I was reading Cartridges of the World and see the 45/75 was listed as having a bullet with diameter of .454 and found that interesting as all of the data I have seen from reloaders, like you, are using .458 slugs.  I'll keep working at it.  Thanks again.

[dusty texian]

Levers, just measured a few different 45/75wcf cartridges that are loaded with bullets cast from an original Winchester mold , and the bullets are on the + side of .458" as cast. The same bullets loaded into brass formed from 50/90 Sharps to 45/75wcf measure .011" neck thickness per side. Jammison brass that I have measure about the same + or minus a 10 th or two. The neck OD of a loaded cartridge with said bullet measures about .481" to .482" . These loaded 45/75 wcf cartridges feed and eject easy through my two original 3rd model 1876 Winchesters. They have a semi roll crimp and are loaded with an original Winchester tong tool. The are very accurate in the old rifles WITH bp.. How do these measurements stack-up with yours. By your sr# you have a early rifle , the early rifles I have measured seem to have tight chambers in the 45/75 and 45/60 . Do you have 5 groove rifling ? Good luck with getting the old rifle shooting . It is a Cool one. If I can help any way just give me a holler,,,,,,DT

[kwilliams1876]

Hello all
Been shooting the heck out of my new Chaparral trying to find the best accuracy combination.  My goal is a decent  (6") 100 yd group. Using Lyman 457122 with a nose plug installed, I have tried 2f, IMR 4320 and 3031. All are offering a 12" pattern off the bench. I am wondering if the root cause could be the Chaparral short neck of the chamber/brass which allows too much of the bullet to be exposed in the tapered shoulder area, and on ignition a severe bump-obturation takes place (read deformation). Next the bullets flared base must be squeezed back down to bore diameter. What are the prevailing thoughts on this? Please weigh in.
KW.

[larryo1]

First off--you should be using 350 grain bullets as that is what the caliber was designed around.  Then try 22.0 grains of 2400 rifle powder and 72 grains of Swiss 1½ black powder.  My rifle has the larger chamber and I use 76 grains of Swiss 1½ and also the 72 grain load.  Both, in my rifle, shoot very well as does that 22 grain load of 2400. There are a ton of different  powders to try out before settling on one load.  I know from my own diddling around, I came up with two or three that are great and fun to shoot but it does take a bit of perserverance to get to that point.  The three that I have mentioned are what work best in MY rifle and I used just a "tuft" of kapok on the powder with the 2400 loading.  If you want to play around, get yourself a can of OS(Old Style)4831 and try 53 or so grains.  There will --or should be about 1-2 grains of unburnt powder in the barrel but it does toss them out there at around 1400fps or so.  Anyway, don't forgetto use a 350 grain bullet.  If you don't cast, you can get them from BACO which is where I used to get mine until I got a custom mold and with my homemade alloy(16:1) started making my own fodder.  Hope all this info helps.

[kwilliams1876]

larryo1
My Lyman 330 gr. mold with the blank hollow point pin installed weighs in from memory at 355 grains or so. Any more bullet weight would just make the projectile longer, meaning more unsupported bullet exposed in the neck taper, which is why I have not tried 400 grainers . You did not mention the groups at 100 yard you are achieving? Yes I could try 4831 next, as this journey is not over yet. A nice 50 yd group if possible is not useful to me much in Montana, where 100 yds is considered point blank. I also am going to try wheel weight alloy next, and even paper patch at some point. You are right about the unburnt smokeless powder.....plenty, mag primers only help a little. I have some original WRA 45-75 rounds and they certainly have a longer neck for complete bullet shank support.

regards
kw

[larryo1]

Well, I don't worry about too much unburnt powder.  You will even get some unburnt BP if by putting out a sheet on the ground in front of where you are shooting and you can see the grains there..  My 100 yard groups are in about 6-8 inches but here again I don't worry too much about that. I do nearly all my testing at 25 yards as I use my chronograph on most of the loads that I test out.  Besides, it ain't as far to walk as to 100 yards.  My really good testing is done on my 200 yard range where I have a 10 inch square sheet of steel hanging on some chains.  That way when that slug hits that piece of steel the clang is all I need to know if it is a hit or not.  Besides, I am not or was not rather a long range hunter.  In fact, my grandson got his first deer this fall at about 20 yards with a 7MM-08.  My last deer(before my heart attacks stopped me) was at about 25 yards and that was done with my Marlin 45-70.  I have dumped a few deer with the Sharps and the 45-90 way out but nothing yet with the 45-75.  Maybe my son will do that one of these days as I doubt that I will ever do much more in the way of hunting.  I imagine that from now on it will be my son who does all the trigger squeezing for me and I will watch and observe.  Sorry but this is about all I can tell you for the time being.I have never tried any bullet that is over 350 grains.  Haven't felt the need to play with those big boys.  I have tried 300 grain and the 330 Gould bullets but never got the results that I get with my 350 grain bullets cast at 16:! alloy.  That alloy I got off the back of a box of factory 45-75 ammo and have never changed except once I did go to 20:1 but did not get the same results as with my 16:1 alloy.

[kwilliams1876]

larryo1
Could you post a picture of the 350 gr bullet you refer to from the custom mold?  What make is it also.

thanks
kw

[larryo1]

KW:
The only thing that I can do is not to even try Photo bucket as, in the past, I have had a hard time to make it work for me so-if you would send me your e-mail address, I can send you all the stuff that you would be interested in.  I hang my hat in Kalispell if you are interested.  My handle is revehngng6@Yahoo.com.

[larryo1]

Don't want to pop anybodies bubble but has anyone had or is having any trouble getting Unique, 2400 or Bullseye?  We can't seem to get any of those here in the Flathead and it also seems that stuff is scarce over in Spokane.  I know this is not or has nothing to do with it but these are used in BP rifles and like in my '76, I use them especially 2400 from time to time. So I would like some comments about this "Shortage".

[King Medallion]

Our local Gander Mountain had 3 lbs of Bullseye and about 10 1 lb bottles of Power Pistol on the shelf last week. Have not seen Unique in ages. Gun show next weekend has a booth loaded with powders, even had green and red dot last time around, and I picked up a lb of 2400 too. Just got to be at the right place at the right time I guess.

[Silver_Rings]

Howdy Kwilliam,

I have a Chappy in 45-75 with the short neck also.  I've done bunch of loads development for it.  I put a Marble tang sight and a globe front sight on it and shoot off sand bags on a solid bench.  I've tried 400 gr and 300 gr hard cast lead bullets with so so accuracy.  I now use 300 gr gas check bullets and have obtained groups of 3" or less. 

These loads are for modern reproduction 1876s with the short neck chamber only.  These loads have not been pressure tested so use at your own risk.
300 grn GC 24.0 grns of 5744 av. vel 1253 fps group 4 rds in 1 1/4 " 5 rds in 2 3/4"
300 grn GC  50.0 grns H4831SC AV. Vel, 1033 fps group 5 rds in 4 1/2"
300 grn GC 33.0 grns 3031 av. vel. 1206 fps group 3 rds in 2", 5 rds in 4 1/2"
300 grn GC 35.0 grns 3031 av. vel. 1323 5 rds in 6 1/2"

All these loads except for H4831SC had polly filler.

I found loads that are 1200 fps or less are more likely to produce small groups.

Silver Rings

[King Medallion]

Has anyone tried 400 grain bullets? I gather that they are too heavy and won't stabilize?

[Silver_Rings]

At least in my Chappy 400 grn bullets work fine.  The problem, which is made worst by the Italian chamber vs the original Win, is that the 400 grn bullets will extend in to the cartridge beyond the neck.  I'm assuming this is the reason I could never get good groups.  I have been able to create loads with 300 grn bullets that group about 1 1/2" at 100 yds.

I also have a Chappy in 45-60 and because of the straight case have been able to work up  1 1/2" loads with both 300 and 400 grain bullets.

Silver Rings

[King Medallion]

Took Thumper out Saturday to try a few loads, this one being the better. 45.0 of H4831 SC, at 50 yards.

[greyhawk]

Took Thumper out Saturday to try a few loads, this one being the better. 45.0 of H4831 SC, at 50 yards.

King
That group is about twice as good as it looks - either your eyes work like mine with iron sights or you getting some tube magazine dispersion (vertical) - its very nice side to side - my Uberti will do about the same with black - if I really work on my sight alignment I can get most of the vertical under control too - have not tried smokeless in mine - kind of "why bother" - it shoots nice with black, I get 1400fps or better (have cracked 1500 a couple of times with a 335 grain slug , and I enjoy handling my 76 to clean it - so really no point in smokeless! (for me) I use 65 to 68 grains of FF (homemade) - soft lead slug maybe 30 to 1 - using two Lee  405 HB molds that I have modified - 1) machined some off the top face till the meplat was safely bigger than a primer pocket - was not real excited about having a full magazine stacked in there nose to tail under recoil with nose to primer contact...2) made a new flat base plug that does away with the hollow base and also takes off the base band and one lube groove (for 335 grains) or just a flat base for 405 grains. My rifle shoots the 405 grain quite ok (maybe even prefers it a little) - using a simple lube of beeswax and neatsfoot oil - and I will give it one long blow after five shots - brass is fireformed 348 and I cut it short so I could crimp that LEE boolit properly for smokeless. Its a really cool lookin loaded round and an awesome rifle .   

[greyhawk]

King and all
One of my loaded BP rounds and the two Lee modified projectiles from my last post - notice I cut the brass some short - did that so I could crimp into the top of the last lube groove - did that cuz I did have intentions of loading smokeyless - - they tell me the road to hell is paved with good intentions ? - the smokeyless idea is gone out the window at this point - coulda woulda shoulda - cut them shells longer and crimped over the last drive band - mighta maybe praps been easier - but it works - the 405 grain pill just sticks a little of its butt down past the neck but it dont expose the lube groove - and it shoots nice. I really like the shape of the front end of these boolits and they got nice generous lube grooves without bein excessive - cheap mold and a bit of basic machining - the single cavity is a little slow but not so bad - easy on the wrist when casting is somethin I like about Lee molds .  

[dusty texian]

Took Thumper out Saturday to try a few loads, this one being the better. 45.0 of H4831 SC, at 50 yards.

[/quote    G

[dusty texian]

Took Thumper out Saturday to try a few loads, this one being the better. 45.0 of H4831 SC, at 50 yards.

Good shooting KM. What bullet were you shooting with that load?  In my 45/75 the 350 gr. Win. bullet and the Lee 457-340F shoots great. Have shot 405gr. bullets of various kinds , they shot OK.  The 350's seem to shoot better for me in my 45/75 wcf .  ,,,DT