Loading Data for the 45/75

[yahoody]

Sorry, can't help you on 4198.  I am still not totally satisfied with 4831.  So I will be loading 3031 and 4320 tonight and shooting it tomorrow.

H4198 seems pretty fast to me.  But so it 2400 and people shoot that and seem happy with the results. 
4895 seems to get used a lot as well with happy shooters.

Magnum rifle primers won't hurt anything and may help some with the big loads of powder.  If you aren't loading a full case poke fillers seem reasonable to me just to keep the powder in position for a consistent burn.

,

[spacecommander]

Sorry, can't help you on 4198.  I am still not totally satisfied with 4831.  So I will be loading 3031 and 4320 tonight and shooting it tomorrow.

H4198 seems pretty fast to me.  But so it 2400 and people shoot that and seem happy with the results. 
4895 seems to get used a lot as well with happy shooters.

Magnum rifle primers won't hurt anything and may help some with the big loads of powder.  If you aren't loading a full case poke fillers seem reasonable to me just to keep the powder in position for a consistent burn.

,

This will be my first loading - the gun is unfired. I had decided on magnum primers and finally read the chapter in Lyman 49 about load data - was confused as it was not in the real load tables so wasn't sure what people were talking about. ;-)

[yahoody]

Only had time today to load, then shoot, fifty rounds made up with IMR 4320. Used the 300gr and 350g Oregon Trail lead bullets on top of 50gr of 4320, with Winchester magnum rifle primers and a hard roll crimp.   No excess case expansion, nice rounded primers, primer pockets are still tight and cases are just barely fully forming in the chamber.  Accuracy is very good, mild recoil and smoke.  Loaded about 95% (300gr bullet) and 98% (350gr bullet) likely by case volume.  Just short of the bullet bases by 1/8" to 1/4".  Have yet to chrono.  Cases are now on the 6th reload and have yet to loose one of the Jamison 45/75 brass for any reason.  And they have been taking a beating!

I like these two loads by my observations today.  Not a totally full case by volume like the 4831sc.  But enough to ensure proper ignition of the powder stack.  Seemed to be easy shooting (physically) with no pressure signs, good accuracy and moderate recoil.   No unburnt powder in the chamber like 4831sc (and the resulting dinged cases after firing) and the cases are just barely fully formed in the chamber with 50grs of 4320.  Best load I have used to date and seems to shoot 1/2" high POA @ 50 yards in my lowest notch.  Perfect for my use.

Below: 15 fast shots on the left with the 300gr Oregon Trail bullet and 50gr of IMR 4320 @ 50 yards.  Five from the bench on the right with the 350gr Oregon Trail bullet over 50gr. of IMR 4320,  again @ 50 yards'.  On a decent day in good light I suspect the bench group could be cut in half.   



 

[matt45]

pretty good shooting- is that w/ the standard buckhorn, or do you have a tang sight?

[yahoody]

Thanks.  Buckhorn and black post on a 20" barrel so 15.5" of sight radius.  Hence the white targets.  But I do shoot iron sights a lot, which helps.

Compared to the pistol caliber lever guns I find the '76 pretty difficult to shoot well for some reason.  Same sights really, and a good trigger on this gun.  But gun is heavier and the recoil more.  The deep (er) crescent butt makes it hard to get a consistent shoulder mount for me compared to others that are similar I think.  Those are my current excuses anyway.  So I am trying lighter loads and a new butt cuff (not that I like them cosmetically) to see if I can live up to the gun's potential.

[matt45]

Well, that's better than I can do    If it had been me shooting that group on the left, I'd figure my barrel was slightly tilted between shots.  I don't figure I'll stand down range and let you shoot at me, anyways

[pinto beans]

Mr. Yahoody,

Thanks for posting the results on the IMR4320 loads.  If you get a chance to run them across a chronograph, would be interested in the results.  IMR4320 is a favorite powder of mine in 3 cartridges, 220 Swift, 6mm Remington and 7x57mm Mauser.  Haven't tried it in the 45-75, been sticking with the AA5744 due to some limited information in the Lyman reloading manual.  What would be nice is if the Lyman folks would follow up with some additional testing, including pressure tests for the 76 cartridges using additional powders like 4320.  Sent them an email thanking for the information published to date and asking for just such a set of expanded tests, like the other listings in regular rifle loading section.  The reply said they would "pass the request along". I am not holding my breath, but sure am interested in the use of 4320, I have had such good results with it in more modern bottle neck cartridges.  Course I admit to not being very adventurous outside of published data.  Thanks again for sharing the adventures, looking forward to hearing more!!

[yahoody]

Hello Mr. Beans,
re: IMR 4320?
I have a small book called "40 years with the 45-70" that I had forgotten about.  Had it at least 25 years myself. It was published by Wolfe in 1989.  Anyway a lot of info there of shooting the 45/70 with 4320 which if I remember correctly was why I bought some 4320 for my 45/70s bitd.   As some may have expected/realised  I have been using  load data from the 45-70 Trap door and lighter lever gun loads as data worth checking out in my 45-75.

Seems 4831 and 4831sc need a little help with ignition.  Everyone seems to have problems with 4831 and the unburnt power in the straight walled cases.  Same problem in the 45-75.  That big old bottle neck case isn't the best mate for 4831.  It is just too slow IMO.   That issue and what it was doing to the next round of brass finally became too much for me.  Matthews is the author of the "40 year" book and suggested using a duplex load of 50gr of 4831 on top of 5 gr of Unique.   Duplex loads use to be fairly common with BP and early smokeless.  Along with many a blown up gun. Frankly, I aint THAT brave!

Matthews also seems to really like 3031 in the 45-70.    Which I'd bet makes it a good candidate for the 45-75.

My next adventure is going to be H4895.  4895 is some where in between on the burn rate chart of the 4831 and 3031.  And I have lots of it.  There has gotta be a sweet spot in there some where!  We'll see if it betters my current 4320 performance tomorrow.

[spacecommander]

Mr. Yahoody - again a round of thanks for posting the load data. I will give the load a try as I'm pretty sure I have the 4320 powder and know I have the 350 oregon lasercast bullets. The fairly full cases yet moderate recoil sound perfect. It sounds like you got a good load there. Please let us know how you do with the 3031.

Next question   Just picked up a pound of Fg (Fg, not FFg or FFFg) and was wondering about anybody's experience with it. I would NOT run a wad or card under the bullet, and do know that as long as the lasercast bullets are used the barrel would need to be cleaned every few shots. Have read some about duplex loading with various powders on the internet, and some is shown in various reloading manuals like Lyman 41 for the 45-70 (yes I know I have 45-75 and 350g bullets) with a 500g lead bullet with Fg and 5 grains of 4759 for fouling removal but don't like the idea of duplex loading. Will be casting my own bullets so will be able to use some BP specific lubes.

Anybody got any ideas?

[larryo_1]

Space Commander:
I have real good luck with 76 grains of Swiss1½ BP.  Also I have good luck with 22.0 grains of 2400 powder with a tuft of Kapok to keep the powder on the primer.  My rifle has the Uberti chamber.

[King Medallion]

Thanks for that load in 4320, going to try that now. I don't have Winchester Magnum primers but do have some CCI magnum's, going to try 10 of each.

Fixed the auto prime problem, turns out the hole in the shell holder had to be enlarged. Took the dremel and whittled a bit on the old style auto primer top rim and presto! works like a charm!

[QueensHorseman]

I don't currently have an 1876 so I'm basing the following on my experiences with other calibers but I have had great results in various cartridges using Reloader 15 and Ross Seyfried years ago recommended it as THE powder for use in the big old British nitro express rounds in place of cordite or even the bp express rounds.  Its burning rate is in the area of 4895 and 4350, it is easy to ignite, and has a proven track record in large, low pressure cases.  Might be another good option if not using black.

I'm still sitting on the sidelines debating whether to get a .45-60 or .45-75 in nwmp carbine configuration.  Memories of heavy loads in my Browning '86 src are pushing me towards the .45-60 and it should do nicely for range shooting and deer hunting but then again the .45-75 is the more authentic choice of my red coated fore fathers! 

Thanks for the great forum and information.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Queens Horseman; I have an NWMP carbine in .45-75 and have only fired it with gunpowder. Recoil is not objectionable. and suitable smokeless loads have been worked up by many to approximate BP mv's. My BP load hits right on to 300 yards with the "Spanish Meter" military style sight

IMHO the main reason to get a .45-60 is to use easier to find .45-70 cases to make suitable cases.

[yahoody]

I'm still sitting on the sidelines debating whether to get a .45-60 or .45-75 in nwmp carbine configuration.  Memories of heavy loads in my Browning '86 src are pushing me towards the .45-60 and it should do nicely for range shooting and deer hunting but then again the .45-75 is the more authentic choice of my red coated fore fathers! 

I have a 45-75 now.  But I would really like to make up a round barrel, half mag 1876  in 40-60.  Roosevelt's favorite '76 rifle.   Brass would seem easy enough.  The bullets not so much.  Lighter bullets mean less recoil in general.  As does less powder.  And the 300g and 350s in the 45-75 seem to prove that.  But easy to understand why a  40-60 in the 1876 with a short round barrel and button mag would quickly become a favorite rifle. 

But I want to shoot the rifle a lot.  Next one for me will likely be a 45-60 even though I'd really like to have a 40-60 for all the reasons mentioned.  I'll just use 300g .45 bullets because every thing just seems so much easier all around. 

[greyhawk]

My rifle is a Uberti 1876 in 45/75 - have been shooting black so far - chinese fireworks powder in 4fa grade - we screened it out and calling the coarser screen FF - its close enough in burn rate to the European Wano FF but the chinese is dirty, cheap though, and with attention to cleaning is shooting ok - I paid serious money for this Uberti and been hesitant about smokeless loads in it. Lots of conflicting info around and a serious lack of pressure data. My thinking was to start with low pressure 45/70 info for the trapdoor - case size is a little smaller right ? (70 versus 75) OOOPS that is WRONG - I compared a fired winchester 45/70 case to my reformed 348 45/75 cases (on their third loading of Black) and very surprised to measure the 45/70 as 12 grains more capacity of blackpowder than the 45/75 - can only put this down to the thickness of 348 brass and those made cases are going to take several more loads to blow right out and fill the chamber - am curious if anybody else has compared case capacity this way?  I was mighty surprised at what I found and that has got to have some effect on pressure along with the bottle neck versus straight case of the 45/70. How safe is this load data comparison?
cheers
Greyhawk     

[greyhawk]

again on the 45/75 loading
Winchesters famous blow up blurb has been quoted several times here as evidence of what the 1876 will stand ?
203 grains of powder and 1750 grains of lead "worked well" according to the write up ??
This gets quoted as the truth !!! Winchester was a shirt salesman and this was the era of the BS snake oil salesmen ! You fellers can believe it if you like - I also got a piece of range in Arizona with ocean frontage to sell - anybody interested.
cheers
Greyhawk
   

[Silver_Rings]

I have a Chappy 1876 and they list 27,000 psi.  Here is info on Uberti:
Uberti has an article on their web site that quoted 29,000 psi as a max for a new production 1876.  And saw the resulting argument s about how that was unsafe according to the Internet "Experts" eye balling it.  Saw another comment today that Accurate Powders quoted 27,000 PSI. 

The low end Springfield loads for 300 grn bullets is a good place to start.  If you are going to use heavier bullets, like 350 and 400 grns, then start a little lower because they reduce case capacity.  My experience with both my 45-60 and 45-75 is they are stronger than people think.

Silver Rings

[yahoody]

You mean this from early Winchester records?

"The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."


Being active in the gun industry at  many levels the last 30 years I have seen so much ignorance represented as "fact" I make a point of checking the well know "facts" out myself.  Beginning to think the "weak" '76 was a historical "fact" based in fiction.

Knowing that a 1873 is now chambered for a 44 magnum and the resulting 36,000 PSI loads I think we are safe loading the 45/75 with smokeless.  I agree with Silver Rings  the modern 1876 is  stronger than most think.  And the fact as Silver springs has mentioned Uberti lists the gun (by an article on their web site) as capable of 29,000 PSI.  Easy to stay under that with 300/350 gr smokelss loads I think.

[greyhawk]

reply to Yahoody

yep thats the one - not trying to denigrate Winchester or Uberti we've been shooting cowboy guns for fun since 1965 but the info in that quote comes from a time when they were allowed to stretch the truth in the name of marketing, much more than we can today.
Some concrete pressure information from Uberti would be real helpful .
Like many others I was surprised when I first read the 44 magnum 1873 was in their catalogue - that upped the ante condsiderably.
Of course the factory ammunition only disclaimer thats standard would neutralise most insurance claims before they get started.
Going out to test a duplex load with 5gr 4227 under that chinese black - that might clean things up a bit - also moving up from my modified lee 350 grain pill to the 405 grain hollow base - gets one more lube groove that way and the Uberti seemed to like the heavier weight better on my first test .
Problem is I gotta shoot off fifty of the lighter bullet loads to get the cases back .. darn it that sounds like fun!

Uberti  1866 in 22lr, carbine 44/40, rifle 44/40, original Win 1973 in 38/40, Uberti 1876 in 45/75, winchester 1892 in 25/20 rifle,32/20 rifle,44/40 short rifle, Rossi 1892 carbine in 357 mag, Browning model 71 in 348,     

[greyhawk]

I have a Chappy 1876 and they list 27,000 psi.  Here is info on Uberti:
Uberti has an article on their web site that quoted 29,000 psi as a max for a new production 1876.  And saw the resulting argument s about how that was unsafe according to the Internet "Experts" eye balling it.  Saw another comment today that Accurate Powders quoted 27,000 PSI. 

The low end Springfield loads for 300 grn bullets is a good place to start.  If you are going to use heavier bullets, like 350 and 400 grns, then start a little lower because they reduce case capacity.  My experience with both my 45-60 and 45-75 is they are stronger than people think.

Silver Rings

Thanks for the links - I am being overly conservative with my 76 - I bent a brass frame 66 a long time ago - a 22 mag we were trying to pull down to clean  - the butt wouldnt come away from the tangs and I gave the point of the comb a bit of a bump with the heel of my right hand to loosen it - yup - when we put it back together the bolt was binding a little in the frame - not smooth and slick anymore - fixed it - sold it - be careful next time .

If I can shoot a magazine full in this 76 without having to clean this gun to hit its ok - cant use a lube disc in the case under the 405 grain cuz the boolit base is already hangin a little bit down in the shoulder area . anyway its all fun figuring things out

Pressure ? Guys are shooting full case compressed loads of FFF Swiss - that stuff has got some grunt - maybe more than GoEx - it would have to be up in the low 20K range I reckon - we used to buy ungraphited 5FA GoEx in 25lb bags - beautiful clean powder but the cracker factory blew up and no more cheap GoEx came to Aus --- ahh for the good old days.