Loading Data for the 45/75

[yahoody]

All of this begs the question of how most of us laymen w/out measuring devices measure pressure ?

You don't if you are smart.  You use what the books suggest.  Really hard to do with cartridges that aren't listed.  45/70 data would be a starting point.  Some have mentioned a 1:1 ratio for the Trapdoor or low pressure '86 loads compared to 1876 loads.   That 45/70 data should be on the low side for 300g and 350gr bullets in the bigger 45/75 case and should be on the high side for the smaller 45-60 case and a 300gr bullet.

Enough published data on smokeless powders and appropriate bullet weights is to make good choices.

All this is really interesting if you have played as much as I have with the '86 in 45 or 50 Alaskan.

.45 and .50 in the '76 are just the earlier and short versions of those wild cat rounds.

[King Medallion]

So, after reading all this, I come to the conclusion that Group 1 (trapdoor) loadings for 45-70 are a good starting point to reload 45-75?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Hobie was my online guru when I started;

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.ca/2007/12/thoughts-on-reloading-1876-45-75.html

And here is the link to his NWMP carbine page, which has several smokeless loads;

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.ca/2007/04/winchester-1876-src-nwmp-reproduction.html

[Silver_Rings]

So, after reading all this, I come to the conclusion that Group 1 (trapdoor) loadings for 45-70 are a good starting point to reload 45-75?

In my opinion, if you are loading 300 grn. lead bullets in the 45-75, then trapdoor 45-70 loads for 300 grn. bullets would be a good starting point.

Silver Rings

[yahoody]

I am not a big fan of BP.   Hobie's article was good but not very much new or in depth info there.  Mind you I am not advocating hot rodding the newer and stronger 1876 Reproductions here.  But where it is suggested nothing faster than 2400 and 100% powder loads I agree and suggest looking even farther.  Nothing wrong with using Smokeless and easily duplicating the old BP velocities either in the new guns.  I have no interest in duplicating BP loads or using fast burning smokeless powders to partially fill 45-75 cases and risk disaster.   

IMR 4198 and 3031, H 4895 and 4831 all seem appropriate from what I see and other's experience.  And all are much, much slower than 2400.  And with the right powder you can have 100% of the case volume filled with bullet and powder.  Just as the original cartridge design intended.  Now we have new rifles made from modern ballistic quality steel and tight tolerances to finally see how capable the new 1876s are. 

In Hornady's 9th Edition there are 146 powders listed.  Fast to slow..#1 being the fastest burning.  #146 the slowest 

Bulleye is #2. Alliant 2400 is #46, 4198 #64, H 4198 #65,  3031 is 69, H 4895 #79,  IMR 4320 # 95, H4831 #125,  H4831SC #126,  Pyrodex CTG #144.

The 45-75 is (the Uberti chamber makes it even closer)  a short version of the .45 Alaskan wild cat.  Which is .348 Win brass necked up to 45.  .50 Alaskan is a .348 necked up to .50  cal.  Both mimic the earlier '76 WCF loads.  Difference is both are loaded hot with heavy for caliber bullets and high pressures in a 1886 or '71 Winchester.  Loaded and shot lots of both.   Way too hot for a '76 and not needed for most anything short of a big bear charge.   ( even then factory .45 or .50 BP vel. would likely do just as well)   Also loaded .505 in a Rigby case and a 505 Gibbs.  4320 and 4831 both work well with big cases and big bullets.  And they seem to work pretty good in the 45-75.  Nice that it is clearly impossible to double charge your '76 using the slowest of these powders.

Group below was shot today off a sand bag rest @ 50 yards using 58gr. of 4831SC with a 350gr lead Oregon trail bullet, magnum primers and a tight crimp on the groove.  There is getting to be some recoil you might notice with my 20" gun.  Gun and load clearly can shoot better than I can.  Same load with a similar 300gr bullet was more fun to shoot but left some unburnt powder.

[larryo_1]

Good shooting.  I run into the same problem with the unburnt  powder grains.  I weighted them and it comes to about 0.27 grains.  All I do after a shot is fired, is to tip the rifle to barrel up and then those grains fall back into the case.  No big deal but a good load.

[yahoody]

Thanks Larry.  I had wondered about my chamber dimensions not knowing prior to the rifle purchase there was a Uberti 45-75 chamber.

I should have fire formed the brass before load with filler and pistol powder.  But was simply too lazy and in too big of hurry to shoot the dang thing

What I have that is noticeable is the little crinkles in the brass if there is some grains of powder left in the chamber from the previous round.  Doesn't see to hurt anything other than the cosmetic appeal of my lovely new Jamison brass.  If I swab the chamber prior to each round this doesn't happen.  Heavier bullets get a better burn and doesn't happen with them either.  Now I am on a search for a "fun" load to use with the 300 gr bullets that does burn fully every time.

I sure see the appeal of the rifle however. 

[larryo_1]

On all my testing with the different forms of 4831, The only weight of bullet I used was from my Hoch mold and cast at 350 grains.  I can't address a lighter bullet.  iI never had any of your "Crinkles" but that may be on account of the heavier bullet?  In fact, I rather like that 4831 powder and have had no problems other than the few grains of powder.  Were the neck  smaller perhaps the unburned grains would not be evident as that stuff was designed for large capacity cases such as the 270/30-06/7mag etc.  But I am happy with what I got.

[yahoody]

I never had any of your "Crinkles" but that may be on account of the heavier bullet?  In fact, I rather like that 4831 powder and have had no problems other than the few grains of powder.

Ha, ha!  Larry with 60g of 4831 I bet you never  got any brass wrinkles  .  Nice load btw!  My brass wrinkles with the 300gr bullets might be a good indicator of just how low the pressure is with 58gr of 4831 since the cases aren't fully expanding.  Also the 300 isn't touching the powder stack.  Close but the 350 is better there.  Which gives a better stack burn and more consistent pressure.   The cases are much cleaner and better/more fully formed (and more unpleasant to shoot)  with the 350s.

I am just guessing here as the dents in the brass seem like the shape of individual grains of 4831 powder look like.  I don't actually see any evidence of unburnt powder past something like you have mentioned.  Tiny, tiny amounts if any.

Love the BOOM and smoke of the 4831 though.   Sounds like a real big bore rifle through my muffs.   

Side note coming home from the range at sunset yesterday I jumped a small heard of Elk crossing the entry road.  No doubt in my mind the rifle and cartridge are capable.    Man was I joneing to use that 45-75   

[larryo_1]

I just dug up my test run on this load and On my Chronograph which is a PACT Pro chronograph. I got an average velocity of 1542.3.  I used Jamison brass that is headstamped 45-75 and fire-formed to my Uberti chamber.  I used a card over the powder and CCI250 magnum primers.  I put on a good roll crimp.  My bullet is, as I stated, a 350 grain bullet that was cast at an alloy of 16:1.  I got that recipie from a box of original ammo.  Works good in my rifle.  Tried 20:1 and it is too fussy for that.  The rest of the statistics are: SD=16.4fps, CV=1.12%, Hi=1561fps Low=1507fps.  Using a Powley computer, I got 18900psi which am not too sure of.  Even the ol buck snorts when you pull the trigger, I find it to be a pretty good load.  Hope all of this is of help.

[yahoody]

Thanks Larry.  All good info.  I have yet to pull out my PACT but will eventually.

[larryo_1]

Great!  Let me know how it all turns out.

[yahoody]

Shot 100 mixed rounds of 300 and 350 gr bullets today.  Loads of 58gr up to  62gr (with the 300s) of 4831sc.  Lighter 300 loads do leave some unburnt powder in the chamber that I thought) dings the brass  when not cleared out but no untold issues past that.  The dinged cases shoot smooth again when reloaded and fired at 60grs.  The tiny bit of unburnt powder grains disappear and the brass is clean and smooth @ 60gr even with the 300gr bullet. Turns out that it is likely not unburnt powder according to my recent readings tonight.  But simply a slow powder and not enough chamber pressure.   Which is why the 350gr bullets and the heavier 60gr loads work so much better while keeping the gun and chamber clean because the brass and chamber seal upon firing.   

Muzzle after one session of 100 rounds of Oregon Trail lead bullets.



Even with 100 rounds down range today the gun (and my hands) are near spotless.  Inside an elevator is as well.  Wish my '73s would come out this clean!

Shot at distances of 100 to 200 yards.  100 and 150yds were easy hits on my 16" x 20 " gong off hand .   Going back to 200 took some elevation consideration to get on target but once figured out and dialed in for the load, hits at 200' from a bench were regular as rain.  At least till I got the gun pretty hot and my eyes started fading. (simple buckhorn and elevator with a 15.5" sight radius on a 20" barrel)

I found the '76 really quite pleasant and fun to shoot off the bench using a hasty rest built from my shooting bag, loading the rifle as a single shot.  Easy and quick.   What a grand gun to shoot!  I like the toggle guns so much more for function and how the action works than the '86 and '92.

[King Medallion]

Got my factory crimp die today, works like a charm. I asked Lee if they could make me a shell holder for my auto hand prime, they said sure, cost will $175. I said really? For a shell holder? Yep. I don't need one that bad.

[yahoody]

Try a shell holder for a 348 Winchester...that is what I am using on mine.  Little tight with some of the brass but in general works great.  I think it is #8?

cost is cheap...$3.00 or so

http://leeprecision.com/hand-priming-tool-shell-holder-set.html

[King Medallion]

Got one, tried it,  #8. Worked on a few. Brass will not fit into the old original round style Auto Prime, but will work in the newer Ergo style Primer. I do not like this new style of primer, it has an extra lifting shelf that is very unnecessary that seems to get clogged up regularly. I bought an extra #23 shell holder and had a guy at work mill off the bottom thinking that would be good for the auto prime, but still the dimension's are to thick, but can still use it one primer at a time. I can prime a lot that way for a lot less than $175.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I just switch to an old RCBS "O" press and the LEE ram-prime. then I can use any shell holder.

[yahoody]

Dang it.  Thought that would work.
I'm running my Jamison brass on a Dillon 550 with a 348 shell plate.  Doing everything there but the powder drop.

[spacecommander]

Just got my Uberti 1876 today! Looking for some medium velocity starter loads. Have Lee dies, Jamison brass, Oregon Trail Lasercast .459 350 grain bullets and a bunch of different powders - pyrodex, trail boss, etc but no 4831. Anybody worked on a trail boss loading?

[spacecommander]

Ok, got some H4198 from a local source. I see Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" lists 24 grains of 4198 under a 350g bullet. I have the Oregon Trails lasercast 350 grainers. There seems to be a fair amount of conflicting data on the internet regarding both the load data (some going significantly higher in the 4198), the use of fillers/fiber wads or no fillers, and magnum or regular primers. If I could track down some real black powder I'd just fill it up to the base of the bullet + a tiny bit then load it up - but I can't seem to find real BP. Could somebody chime in with some suggestions? I mean somebody who has actually loaded and shot what they are recommending?  I'd really like to try this Uberti 1876 . . . .